good morning and welcome to the 24th meeting or in 2022 of the local government housing and planning committee members should note that the convener of the social justice and Social Security committee Eleanor whittam MSP will is also joining us for this meeting for both our substantive evidence sessions today and I welcome her to this meeting and I would ask all members and witnesses to ensure their mobile phones are on silent and that all other notifications are turned off during the meeting and also that we have received apologies from Annie Wells this morning the first item on our agenda today is to decide whether to take items four and five in private our members agreed we're all agreed we now turn to agenda i22 which is to take evidence on the emergency legislation on a rent freeze and a moratorium on evictions and we have two panels of witnesses this morning with some of panel one participating remotely joining us in the room today we have Caroline Cauley member and Emma Saunders who's the national organizer of living rent Timothy Douglas who's the head of policy and campaigns at property mark and Rihanna Sims who's the senior policy officer at crisis and joining us online we have John Blackwood who's the chief executive of Scottish Association of landlords Aaron Hill who's the director of policy and membership at the Scottish Federation of housing associations and John Kerr who's the vice chair of the association of local Authority Chief housing officers uh once our first panel has concluded we will then hear from Patrick Harvey who's the minister for zero carbon buildings act travel and tenants rights and I welcome our first panel of witnesses to the meeting before we move to questions from the committee so I wanted to make make clear I wanted to make clear that the cost of living protection of tenants Scotland bill has been published last night Parliament has agreed that all three stages of the bill should be taken before Thursday and with that in mind there is no formal role for this Committee in that scrutiny however the committee previously agreed that it would be helpful to explore issues arising from the bill with stakeholders and the minister to help inform scrutiny of the bill in the chamber over the coming days and given these timings there is no expectation that witnesses will be fully up to speed with the specific content of the bill itself and are now opened questions I'm going to begin asking um so I just also just for your understanding of the process so members are going to have an allocated amount of time to ask their questions and um what we try to do is direct questions to people so you're not necessarily expected to answer every single question so if a question gets directed to somebody and you still want to come in on a response on that one um then just indicate to myself or Ewan or if you're on blue jeans just put an r in the chat function thanks so um so given the current cost crisis which has required the Scottish government to take legislative legislative action to protect tenants do you I'm interested here if you think this is a proportionate response that balances the rights of tenants and landlords and and I would like to begin with um Aaron Hill morning thanks bye thanks for the opportunity to give evidence this morning um I think I think from from Housing Association perspective I think we recognize the you know the the gravity of the US living crisis that is being faced by by people right across uh right across communities at the moment um and an emergency response is absolutely necessary from Scottish government here housing associations have been working against Heavens over a number of months to support them with food Fuel and and cash in their pockets um the cost of living crisis is structural and requires supply side action as well as as well as a response to the symptoms of that crisis um and that requires significant interventions in in building thousands more social homes retrofitting existing homes bring down energy costs so I think our concern in terms of in terms of the balance of of the action taken by Scottish government is there if a rent freeze were extended beyond the 31st of March it would be an ineffective attempt to tackle some of those symptoms and reduce the collective ability of housing associations and our partners to tackle some of those longer-term systemic challenges around poverty um ultimately the the social housing Regulators evidence alongside the bill today uh shows that around 50 million pounds of of income would be taken out of Housing Association business plans in year one um over the course of four years that rises to more than 200 million and that would be billions over the course of a business plan so that what that adds up to is is fewer homes being built is fewer homes being retrofitted to zero carbon standards and less service provision in terms of uh in terms of tenants and and the support that can be offered to tenants to support them with things like the cost of living living crisis that said the legislation is drafted currently only takes us up to the 31st of March and we want to work with Scottish government collectively and collaborative collaboratively to to find a solution there is strong evidence that government intervention is not required beyond that point social rights in Scotland are are consistently half of that of the private rented sector and social ranks in Scotland are the lowest in the UK and that has happened because we've not had government intervention up to now the role housing associations play in their communities Consulting with tenants working closely with them on setting rents is why we why we've got to that point and I think if you look at other interventions on rent across the UK what you see is rent policy often drives unintended consequences so well social landlords in England and Wales have uncertainty they will often take the highest rent rise available to them because it gives them certainty in that year we've not had that position in Scotland in the position of being able to consult over a number of years gives us a chance to kind of smooth out some of the challenges uh challenges that we face over the course of business plan and the final Point uh the final point I would make is is the role that tenants play in this social housing tenants are vital part of the rent setting process in Scotland they have a formal consultation role um and last year when when social housing landlords or social landlords went out to consult with their tenants and less than 50 percent chose the lowest rent increase that was available because when social housing tenants are informed about the impact that rent increases make on businesses make on Services they take informed decisions and I think that there's a danger that we underestimate social housing tenants in saying that it is for government to make this decision and not them thanks Aaron for that that's very interesting about the the consultation responses there um I'd like to just I and I totally understand and you you know you've been here before this committee talking about the three issues of you know building new Supply better fitting and keeping the rents affordable um you know and given that challenge I'd just be interested to hear from you um if there are new proposals you you would like to see coming forward uh or bring or bring forward yourself um you know in in relation to a future of how we can tackle this situation yeah so I think as I said we you know we want we want to work collectively with the Scottish government on what happens beyond beyond the 31st of March and and we've been we've been given some thoughts of what what that might look like I think that there could be conservative action as there is already from uh from social landlords around the cost of living so you know support for tenants around food fuel getting cash into people's pockets um but what we need is what we need is certainty instability on on a Home Building issue and on on the retrofit issue um the the unprecedented nature of government intervention in this space in Scotland has already spooked some of our key Partners not least not least the lenders so I'm aware of a number of housing associations who have uh have had loans withdrawn that were about to be signed off in one example that was a 90 million pound loan uh half of which was for refinancing half of which was for for new build and the new build elements of that was uh was withdrawn um I've heard of big housing associations over the last few days prior to some of uh some of what else has happened in the market um having you know having Financial agreements taken away to be repriced um so I think in terms of in terms of proposals what we need is stability and certainty early on from Scottish government around what's around what's happening we need management of that relationship with the lenders really strong engagement from Scottish government with UK finance and with key Partners in the sector you know ultimately housing associations are carrying about six billion pounds worth of debt um and we cannot we cannot carry out those key functions that we've talked about without that debt without that lending from private lenders and we need to make sure that that relationship is a positive one both between ourselves and that sector and between that sector and government so I would say that you know Scottish government has committed a huge amount of support due to the development of new homes during this Parliament but the cost increases that we've seen and I've spoken about this with this committee before the cost increases we've seen over the course over the life of this Parliament already have been enormous um and so without the ability to increase ranks moderately and and moderate is really important and development will fall will ultimately fall off a cliff to come back to that point around moderate rent increases we we completely acknowledge the the you know the the unprecedented situation we're in here uh around around inflation levels and inflation is often the marker that informs rent increases in the social housing sector there wasn't a single Housing Association I'm aware of it would have gone anywhere near inflation this year and they had the power to increase their rent we know last year that the average rent increase was below inflation and we were looking at similar this year we were talking to members who were in the five six percent increase Mark way below inflation and it's really important that we're able to balance those pressures of the cost increases that we face on the business side uh the ability to meet the needs of Staff the ability to meet meet the needs of the wider Community as well as supporting tenants thanks very much for that I'd like to now um bring in um I've got a kind of like similar question the same question to John Blackwood um you know whether you think the emergency legislation is required given the housing and economic context that we're in well thank you and first of all thank you for inviting us along this morning to give evidence rather than repeat some of the issues that have already been mentioned there you know I do Echo a lot of the points that have already been discussed but one thing I would like to emphasize is that we do not believe that this is proportionate because of course landlords are effective as well as tenants through this cost of living crisis that we're living through at the moment and I want to emphasize that it's important that landlords work together in partnership with tenants be able to overcome some of these issues and I think we likewise agree that landlords and tenants need to be supported in these difficult times increases in the cost of living as I see in fact affects landlords as well as affects tenants and what we're seeing is interest rates on mortgages going up that's already happening in fact access to mortgages is going to become a major problem for landlords investors so these are issues that really need to be taken on board because some existing landlords quite frankly will not be able to continue to operate in the sector it was mentioned earlier that landlords are spooked by this potential bill or this bill that we have before us now and indeed when the first Minister made her statement back in the 6th of September it was very clearly along the lines that there would be a ban on evictions and also a rain Freeze from looking at the bill uh it seems to be a watered-down version of that statement so it's not quite what she promised and of course that give investors a lot to worry about and of course many of them did decide to pull out of the sector there were we we're really worried about investor confidence in the private rental sector we need more Supply that's really really important in both social housing as well as the private rental sector because ultimately we want to be able to bring prices down so that tenants can afford to live in the homes that we all provide thanks very much for that John um so you mentioned the kind of concern and you mentioned that people have been leaving the sector and and yet the sector has been growing dramatically over the period of Regulation interventions for example than you you know even with the new tenancy agreement of 2016 the sector has grown so be interested to hear you know why you think that something like this which in the context that we're in right now which will ensure that people have a home over the winter and that you know helps to shape Scotland in a fairer Direction um you know why you think that people might choose to to to leave or or you know what where the evidence is but landlords have been leaving the center we do have evidence of that through landlord registration figures over the last couple of years and of course evidence from tenants who are struggling to find the home so we know from our members as individual landlords at letting agents when they're putting properties in the market they're absolutely inundated with prospective tenants wanting to view so we know that there is a lack of Supply because our members and other landlords are telling us they are selling actively selling their properties just now they no longer see Scotland as a place to invest as a landlord and they're looking to invest elsewhere now that's not good news that tells us that not only do we have a house in crisis at the moment with landlords leaving the sector that situation is going to get much worse very soon okay thank you very much for that and like I'd like to now turn to um to living rent and it's the same question um whether you think the emergency legislation is required giving the housing and economic context that we're in and whoever yeah choose between you good morning and thank you for inviting us to speak today um we absolutely believe that the legislation needs to go through tenants are well everyone is in a crisis but tenants especially Food Bank use has gone up energy bills are spiraling and rent just keep increasing at insane rates so from some of our members we've heard that a one tenant in Glasgow their rent went up from 660 pounds a month to 895 that's a 35 increase the property has poor fitting single glazing so it's freezing in the winter and the heating is ineffective and expensive and they're having to move out there's another tenant that's in Edinburgh and they've seen their rent increase by 32 percent and they stated that we cannot afford to stay and we'll have to move out but this requires more money for deposits Etc which we also don't have and in Dundee a tenants are a 20 increase and had to move out of their home and they're now illegally living on someone's in someone's living room so the current market value is completely unsustainable and in the last few years uh between 2010 and 2021 there's been private rent increasing in Glasgow of of um 30 and lothians has gone up by 42 and in the last year since the pandemic it's increased by 12 in Dundee 14 in Edinburgh and 16 in Glasgow it's just truly unaffordable for people who are working never never mind people who are in um who are on benefits and it should also be noted that social housing the market value has gone up by 24 and Edinburgh has by far the highest social rents in Scotland it's it's unsustainable for anyone to be able to put it with these kinds of prices it's very much for that and a further question so the bill um does not affect rent increases between tenancies so how will this affect the cost of living for tenants who are moving between tenancies well it's going to be a disaster people are going to be trying to find new properties and all of a sudden the rent's just far too high and it's going to hit vulnerable people in particular especially those who are leaving Domestic Violence new people move into the city young people and just people who have found that the situation they're in is too expensive and they now trying to find somewhere cheaper but everywhere is bumps up their up bumps up their rent so there isn't anywhere affordable and the social housing list in Edinburgh there's 24 000 people on the wait list for housing temporary accommodation is overstretched beyond all measure where are these people supposed to go this Leopold needs to be closed to make sure that no rents are increased so that new tenants don't have to suffer skyrocketing prices thanks very much for that I'm going to move on and bring in other members and I just want to encourage other members I haven't been able to I would go way over my allocated time if I tried to get to everybody so please do bring in those who haven't spoken yet and I'm going to bring in Willy coffee thanks very much convenient good morning to everyone I just wanted to ask a couple of questions about the impact or the proposal and the private sector and perhaps invite Timothy to to come in initially Timothy Douglas Timothy your submission to the committee warned us about the possibility that tenants May interpret the rent phrases and instruction not to pay the rent at all so I'd like to just explore that issue with you and be obliged if you would tell us what you think the impact will be for both tenants and private landlords and I'll invite some responses from other members of the panel too please thank you very much and uh just as a church I thank you for the opportunity for for being here today and providing evidence and insight from property Market to professional body representing letting agents we've got over 500 members in in Scotland I think as an opening property Mark can our members acknowledge the cost of living crisis agents and businesses themselves um you know they've got costs overheads and uh have employees and then our employers so whilst the program for government there are things in there the tenant fund extending the discrete discrete housing payments the warmer homes Scotland we don't think that you know the focus on a rent freeze in particular is you know balanced and proportionate might bring significant peace of mind to tenants without going to not Rising alongside other costs during the cost living crisis however rent controls do not address the root cause of rising rents which is a shortage of rental properties caused by a lack of housing Supply so fundamentally from property Mark's perspective you know we think this will further reduce Supply which in turn will increase rents further for the sector and there is also you know a potential impact on the quality of that that property in terms of you know disincentives for landlords to invest in the upkeep and put money into that property how can they stand out and Market Market that property when rents are essentially caps so the third reducing Supply and could lead to an impact on the quality of property I mean the the statement about the measure potentially being interpreted as an instruction not to period at all is quite a big statement are there any evidence to back that up or have you any forecasts around that okay I'll come to Rihanna and then a second but obliged if Timothy could share any information that you have that may give some credibility to that that statement sure it may be something that I can provide to to the committee in more detail after the session okay what's your bite here Rihanna thanks very much um yeah there's I was actually going to point to some some research um that was uh looking at the impact of the eviction ban that was introduced um during the pandemic um it's research by uh Indigo house um the rent better research um and also uh by sfha um looking at sustaining tenancies in both of those reports showed that um actually the eviction ban didn't lead to the same kind of um what what people might expect in terms of the rise in uh rent arrears um in fact renters um went down during that period and that might actually be due to the other kinds of support that were in place um at the time in terms of um you know the the 20 pound uplift to Universal Credit um increasing discretionary housing payments and that kind of thing and and it's I think that's really important because it's it it lets us know that the best most targeted way to support people to manage their rent um is to provide um well to increase their incomes for those at the very lowest end of the market and so uh that's that's just um but just a couple of bits of research um but you know from crisis's perspective um we absolutely believe that you know there's no there's no doubt that people in in low-income households people in poverty are really uh struggling right now um jrf just published some research last week which showed that a quarter of renters surveyed um regularly cut their spending on other Essentials to afford their rent and that rose up to a third for those who were on a low income um and so I think I mean we all know that the cost of living crisis um it's it's an emergency at the moment and for those in poverty that's an emergency as um as acute as the as the pandemic um and it calls for emergency measures which other times wouldn't be considered and I think um we absolutely support the need uh to do something to to support tenants through that crisis and but I think we need to be clear that these these measures are um temporary um and that we need a really clear way to transition out of them as well and there's something else in terms of the context here which is that the the homelessness system is absolutely uh bursting at the seams it's it's pushed to Breaking Point at the moment and which I'm sure is something that members will see in their constituencies all the time um and the just to to point to a couple of figures which which show that really starkly um in the five years leading up to 2020 applications for homelessness support were Rising increasing steadily we saw a little dip during the pandemic but then um we've seen those figures increase again uh so arguably the pandemic was an interruption of that that long-term Trend um we've now got 26 000 households in the homelessness system and that figure is the highest that has been in two decades um it's the highest since since records began and we have almost 14 000 um households in temporary accommodation including households with children um and people are spending longer and longer in temporary accommodation as well and so I think whilst we we think it's necessary to um tackle the cost of living crisis in the context of the statistics I just gave I think the emergency legislation that we're discussing just now and it's more of a kind of sticking plaster on a much bigger Longer term problem um and so I think the um what we need to do is really prioritize I mean what colleagues of mine have been saying around the supply and access to settled housing investment in homelessness Services which is vitally important but also bigger systems change and the systems change I'm talking about is the introduction of homelessness prevention duties we have an opportunity to do that later this parliamentary year with the um longer term sort of housing bill and the worry I guess that my organization has is that this emergency legislation is is going to push the time scales on that housing bill um and and that's worrying because we don't get the opportunity to make the systems change that we need to really shift the dial on those homelessness statistics thanks very much for that response Janet are there any other colleagues in the panel wanting to answer that deal for an answer to that question online I can see um is there anyone online yeah thank you it will just pick it up on you know the comments there I mean it needs to be acknowledged though that throughout the pandemic you know beyond letting agents and landlords you know worked extremely hard to maintain Tendencies and keep people in in their homes so you know electric agent in Glasgow who contacted me they paused all rent increases during the pandemic some landlords withdrew or rent charges others reduced amounts that were owed so and they've have capped rent increases at five percent which they think is very reasonable response for two to three years pause so agents you know as a whole you know they're not bartering rent prices or offer to the highest bidder you know they're checking at length attendance uh affordability before the tenant commences and and working with landlords and tenants and trying to be accommodating and find Solutions as best as possible but they have provided that support throughout throughout the pandemic okay thanks for that Timothy they have a time to move on to another question um actually so what we need to do is we've both got um John Kerr would like to come in and John Blackwood so I'll bring them both in and then I think we need to move on so John Kerr would you like to come on in thanks chair and and behalf of our children like this I thank for the opportunity to speak at the the association this afternoon this morning sorry okay first of all just like to say which I fully understand the need and set to Amazon uh to be responsible with rent levels and to ensure that they're affordable uh and going forward what I would say is just it's a build on some LS comments made Bernard and Rhiannon hey in terms of uh there's another Major Impact but there is much to be loaded in terms of the the legislation that's been introduced and now particularly it gives tenants both in the social sector and in the private sector about a certain thing went through the the winter months the moratorium and evictions has a just to build on something Rhiannon said as is to be welcomed particularly in a time where the homelessness systems are very much stretched uh sort of going forward so not withstanding uh and I think that the point Aaron made right this at the beginning of the session was a fairly fully supportive of the legislation at the moment the the unintended consequences that Aaron spoke about and just based on some of this our testimony so far a if the power like it was too big then the provision is enacted in terms of the legislation settled at the moment uh going forward then it's at 23 24 things that's when you see the unintentive consequences mobile spoken about years about crucially about house and supply and housing supplies such as a key uh to get together the housing crisis and particularly in the terms of provision of additional social housing both in the local Authority sector and the Housing Association sector a unattended consequences as the like Adam spoke about the the the on the the lender for our sales that will be consequences at terms of local authorities that's the the borrowing requirements a little bit more pressures on also Revenue accounts and where that can be impacted negatively towards tenants is that it's a councils begin to set reinfest unwillingly uh but just in terms of the economics in terms of the provision of a future housing so that's one of the unintended consequences as well as well as a achieving our Shield's Ambitions and our shared aspirations about I can't stock and the genetic decarbonization but more crucially is about the been an Energy Efficiency measures because that really does make a difference to detain its Pockets if you reduce the the fuel bills because you put in a better more it's a cost certain heating systems but that instead of terms requires borrowing and hras are presumpt and it's a further that impacts there negatively so that my fear is if this extended by the March 23s that there's line there are unintended consequences that will come into play which would lead to us a detriment to then there's a very tenants what we're trying to help going forward thanks for it thank you very much for that John and uh now John Blackwood would you like to come in yeah I will be very brief because I know you are short for time I just wanted to pick up in a point that Timothy was mentioning uh really about home landlords and tenants have worked together in the past our Pickers concern about this legislation was the lack of consultation from the Scottish government with the sector prior to its introduction I do appreciate it some emergency legislation and that was announced as such but prior to the emergency legislation for the covid-19 requirements uh we were consulted on that and we worked very closely with both the Scottish government and other organizations to ensure that the impact of that pandemic was mitigated as much as we possibly could the landlords and tenants did work together and indeed the Scottish government did applaud landlords for doing that where possible we reduce strengths and we work with our tenants to make sure they sustained their tenancies the question there from Willie was about what evidence that we have about rain careers and tenants willingly not paying their rent well we do have evidence of that of course our members can tell you their own individual stories of that but there are also stories published in the decisions of the first tier tribunal as well to where eviction cases have gone through the tribunal process and they have been fully written up so there are details there which are publicly available but I think the main thing we want to go across is again we're in an emergency nobody denies that the cost of living affects everyone tenants particularly but landlords too and we cannot lose sight of the fact that their costs are going up as well so how can we together as a sector work together to sustain tenancies keep landlords in the sector and encourage them not discourage them encourage them to actually invest in the future the submissions that you have received before the committee today from other organizations all they look to the same thing the unintended consequences of this legislation and the impact it will have on housing supply for the future that's the bigger concern this legislation is a sticking plaster it's not a solution and what we need to do is get around the table and find a solution to creating affordable rents the cover landlords costs and a return on investment as well as provides a secure home for 10 years to live in thanks very much for that John I'm now going to bring in um Paul McClellan with questions and I'll just ask now that we've all spoken and we've kind of opened the subject to try to keep your comments to brief so we can get all the members in we've got quite a few questions I think Paul thank you again just refer members the marriage love interests so one on any property to my in-laws in Dunbar um just I'm going to ask probably Carolina and then Rhiannon about this one how should emergency legislation deal with rent noises and student accommodation which is currently excluded from the private residential tenancy regime so and if Carolina who wants to come in that one and I've come across to Rihanna um I believe the legislation proposed is covering student accommodation and we think that's a really really important thing to do because it's important to look through the sectors as a whole and creating loopholes whether that's around purpose-built student accommodation or short-term lets Etc will create more and more tiered systems that doesn't tackle overall um like how do we provide affordable rents in Scotland it was aware of there was a I think there was a demonstration two or three months ago I think by then us I don't know if you do you have any evidence of the the rent rises in that particular sector in other words issues around about I think around about 30 were mentioned particularly in Edinburgh Theory I don't know if you have any evidence to back that up at all I not just on me however I've been provided afterwards yeah you for that Rhiannon just did the same question sorry is that on yeah sorry um yeah I mean I think um it's not in terms of students risk of homelessness um it's it's not I think it tends to be other groups that are higher risk um although I did see that there was a representative from nus who was speaking at I think the children and young people's Committee just last week um uh talking about the the risk to students and that there are students who are experiencing homelessness now so I think it is welcome that that this bill does um also include student accommodation uh but yeah it's it's not something that we have a huge amount of evidence on so I can come back to the committee if that's useful yeah okay I don't know if anybody else has got any then come on comment on that one um I think Emma wants to come back in briefly um apologies I think where we're seeing it the impact is on in between tenancy rent increases so a lot of students will be like newcomers in the market um especially people arriving from overseas and they're finding um sort of in-between tenancy rent increases really difficult to access and so as well as when universities increase the population of students and that can be really really difficult so I think that points to that problem of in-between tenancy rent increases and the need to really think through that okay okay I'll move on to the next question and I'll probably come to this one first probably um through Aaron and John and probably Timothy in this one as well how can tenants and landlords best be informed about any changes to legislation to ensure the policy has maximum effect so I don't know if you want to come in that and then I'll ask a joint to come in on that one as well and maybe I'll come back Timothy and another girl but Aaron yourself first of all yeah thanks I think that the the the role of informing tenants and consultant attendance is really important elements of this and at this point of the Year housing associations would normally be going out to consult on on this year's rent increases and uh one element of of such a big political announcement is the is the impact that that then has on the perception of that on our ability to do that effectively um and and I think there's there's real there's a real chance that we see some confusion over the next couple of months as as and the legislation that the supporting text around the legislation says that there is nothing preventing Housing Association social ambulance going out with consult on next year's recognizes at this point and with such big political messaging that there is a referees in place and there will be there will be some backlash to that so I think that we we are working we're working really closely with officials and Scottish government to try and manage some of that get some kind of clear consistent communication and messaging out as best we can but it is it is tricky because as I said earlier that consultation period is really really important okay Alan thanks for that join obviously yourself from and look Authority point of view thanks for the question and just this uh yesterday where Aaron said there is that most local authorities if they've now began that's that processor now with the tenants are will be getting over the the course of the next month uh we are working closely with the South Scottish government officials the the short life working group has been established and I think that's the key to get the this up proper and appropriate messaging out uh to tenants as Aaron's appointed as a fine balance on that terms of the preconception that maybe some tenants would have about their entries there and when we're looking to uh to talk about uh rent increases uh and events that consultation options with attendance and saturnza assessing with the tenant priorities are then and maybe going back to uh an earlier point that was made as its attendance of for the last number of years since it was introduced this as the statutory element of the tennis being involved in rent consultations they have benefited from that they have a it's allowed them to put forward their attendant priorities and I think it was Ireland mentioned at that point it's at terms of housing associations in terms of local authorities we've also recognized this is it's not always the the lowest option this attendants go for in terms of improvements they could move to their homes and terms investment in in new homes and satanas are quite attuned tennis I I do have that foresight so I think it's important we continue to speak to tenants and those rent consultations do take place but in in the midst offer a degree of 70 going forward and I I think we have to be smart with a with that communication so that there's not any expensive he's going to go going forward I think there is an honest and Scottish government as well I think obviously we've got the minister after us so I think that's one question I'm certainly asking because I can't think there has to be that General message as well so thank you for that Timothy approval from yourself from from a different Prospect obviously from New York represent your members how did you see that just the same question again sure thank you well communication is key and I think you know every agent worth their salt will be communicating with both landlords and tenants on a regular basis throughout tenancies and at the start of tenancies so Communications is key professional bodies we have a a role to play where we can disseminate um information as uh John Blackwood has alluded to this is emergency legislation if only there's been limited detail uh today but we've you know pushed through and forced to have meetings with Scottish government officials and they've told us as much information as they can so professional bodies um can play a role and then I think it's whether there's a role for local authorities and the Scottish government through the register of landlords and the register of letting agents as well so I think it's pulling on um all of those leaders but I think language is key as a final Point probably back to Mr coffee's Point around a wide language important it's not actually a freeze because a freezing lies don't pay your rent it's a cap so I think language to the sector both landlords tenants and agents is important I want to say thank you for that John I understand you want to come in on this one as well yes thank you uh just to reiterate the answer with the pandemic uh the wear mechanisms to communicate with both landlords and tenants and we think that's crucial it's really important to get a clear message out to tenants and to landlords and support the rights and responsibilities actually are and we could use the landlord registration database to do that that happened during the pandemic and we would encourage ministers and of course local authorities to administer who is databases to to do that so there's a clear easy way to communicate with both tenants and landlords there's a lot of confusion out there you know and even from seeing the the build that's before us today lots of landlords and tenants still don't quite know what this means to them so effectively rents can go up and evictions can take place and that's confusing both landlords and tenants so clear communication is important John thank you for that and I'm going to come on my final question and I'm a bit of time so I'm going to ask people to be brief it's it's quite an important question and everybody's kind of touching that just now and it's how should the Scottish government monitor the impact of their entries and what factors does it need to consider and whether to extend the freeze beyond the end of March 2023 and we've all touched upon how did the developed longer term legislative change so I'm probably going to come with that one probably um probably to run into your to yourself first of all and then I'll open it up beyond that but if it can be brief if it's possible um yeah thank you um well I think that there's there's a few things that we need to monitor in order to know actually what effect uh this is how having um it's quite tricky to monitor that because I don't think we have the data currently um but one one thing is um actually rents data on rents uh for sitting tenants and not just tenants um you know not just the tenses that are being advertised um as a minimum we need to collect um the property address the actual rent costs um the number of rooms whether it's furniture or unfurnished um the property condition and that kind of thing and there were plans I think to to put that in place through the housing bill which was coming later this parliamentary year um which I hope is still coming um and alongside data on rents we need to we really do need to monitor the impact that this has on uh the supply and access to housing particularly for those on on the lowest incomes um you know I I do I I mean crisis uh shares some of the concerns around the uh knock-on impacts this might have um in terms of the market and um that's because from our perspective when you see a reduction in in supply of housing a reduction in supply of um uh private rented housing then the those who are most likely to be squeezed out of the market are those at the the lowest end of the income distribution and um those at highest risk of homelessness and also um crisis runs a help to rent a scheme where we support people currently experiencing homelessness into the rented sector um through sort of deposit guarantee schemes and that that sort of thing and there is a there is a worry here that it becomes more difficult to actually um support those people experiencing homelessness into tenancies and but I would also argue that actually the the best and most targeted way to to help people um at that and lowest end of the market is um through uh more targeted support through discretionary housing payments through the tenant Grant fund which I think we you know there are ways that we could make that much more targeted um at those who need it most uh so yeah I'm going to open up a minute sorry so there so there's people who have already asked to come in but can I just ask that if something's already been said just in the interest of time you don't need to come in but so Aaron and then John Kerr sorry about that just time is an issue so Aaron come on I'll be I'll be I'll be a speaker's account on this I think I think this is this is fundamental because the the bill will give powers to two ministers to extend the legislation and I think we need to be really clear what the criteria would be for extending any any cap so you know we've been pressing officials analysters on this we would expect to see data on rent areas with expectancy data on on evictions homelessness all of those sorts of things that might fall into that as well as the wider what is the impact of the cost of living crisis having but I think it's really important that we also consider things like the number of starts uh the number of applications for social for um for affordable housing grants to monitor The Wider impact here on on what's going on the issues that the Caroline others have pointed to are market failure and there is a danger that this doesn't help stop stressing that market failure so we need to make sure we have the whole picture and the whole um the whole picture of evidence for for the impact thanks Aaron and John Kerr thanks just the one thing I would say ads and set down to the responsible nature or particularly social landlords as the like I spoke earlier about the the consultations that we're starting so government will have like a full room of information about what they've proposed written increases if there has to be rent increases across social landlords and I think that's that's crucial better evidence priority if the government's going to make a decision where that requires any additional intervention in the in in the market after after April uh 23 just to see the responsibility of of landlords are keeping their their rents as low as possible while still delivering quality high quality services and stills that deliver on the investment in both new and and existing stock thanks thank you for that and does anyone else want to come in on the question of what we need to be mono you know what do we need to monitor to understand the impact can I just see if there's anyone else that wants to come in before I bring you back in anybody else anyone online Okay okay so John Blackwood and then I think I saw uh Timothy and then Emma yeah I know I know she wants to come back in but I want to yeah but let's just go around so John and then um Timothy and then Emma and then I'll bring you back in if it's not been covered thank you I think one thing that would be worth monitoring is the market and the availability of new accommodation for rent so we could easily do that by Mar by monitoring the portals for instance that market property seek evidence from both tenants and from landlords and letting agents so that they can share their experiences to how difficult it is to find accommodation and indeed from those who are supplying the accommodation of what they are experiencing from my understanding there's no monitoring of that data thanks for that John and Timothy yeah I'll keep it brief I think that the point about advertised rents versus you know actual rents achieved um it is important and crucial whether there's Intel that can be obtained from you know tribunal rulings um relating to to rent and I think the final point is in the legislation it says around you know three months reporting from the Scottish government and the minister it's just whether that I assume that will be you know made public that that information in terms of decisions going forward thank you great thanks very much and Emma um I think around the rent database to emphasize we really really need it um and it can be accessed potentially as well through deposit schemes that have information around rents because deposits are linked to rent and or the landlord register the other thing that would be important for us to monitor is a rent to income ratio and especially as we're not seeing income Rise um as well as sort of um rent income and bills ratio great thanks very much for that and I think I said come back to you just a tiny um Edition was that we had 10 million committed to the um tenant Grant fund and it's very unclear how that's currently been spent and we've heard that that eligibility for the tenant Grant funders is going to be extended um and it's it's not clear how so I think we just need to monitor the spending of that very very carefully okay and I think on that there's over a thousand refusals to to that scheme to date so I think we need to understand why that is why that was the case okay great thanks very much thanks Paul I'm going to move on to mark thanks Camilla just draw members attention to the marriages that of Interest as an owner of a private Enterprise Property in North lanarkshire Council area and just to continue on from poem McLaren's question perhaps direct this to um Aaron and John Blackwood when we are looking at the review period and the option to extend the rent freeze or not I just wonder whether you consider whether there should be a separation of Social and private sector given the different legal regulatory environments both sectors working whether that should be a separate review and decision of both sectors but it comes out in first yeah thanks I I think they they absolutely do need to be separate I think as I said at the start of my evidence rents in the social housing sector are around half of that in the private rental sector so I think the the key the key question for me is is who benefits um I I talked earlier about what some of the measures might be for measuring that when when social rents were cut by one percent in England uh in 2015 the ifs carried out some work to look at who ultimately benefited from uh from that change and the conclusion of the ifs was that there was little benefit to tenants and enormous benefit to the executive so I think we need to we need to look at this decision in in that context and I think it's really important that the legislation gives mechanisms for varied caps across sectors which reflect the different economic circumstances that that affect them and that that said I think you know we we can't we can't take for granted that the the action um sorry sorry the the action the action must be um must be one that is taken to allow for social landlords to continue to provide services to support tenants um we we recognize the pressures that face tenants um and it's really important that we are able to continue to fund those services and if we are not able to increase grants moderately into next year there is a chance that some of those important services that will help tennis in the cost of living crisis uh others that suffer any um I think maybe just to add to that point there as well I think at some point there will be a decoupling of the issues between social landlords and private landlords uh private landlords are are of course affected in a very different way through the cost of living increase not least because of rising interest rates and how that will affect their mortgages going forward so there are different different and very concerning issues for private individuals renting out property as opposed to housing associations and local authorities so I think any further assessment we need to look at all these variances in the housing that's provided both in the social sector and in the private interceptor one more question on whether the freezers extended beyond the 31st of March and directed probably towards Aaron and and John Kerry you've talked about except in the situation as as in almost that caveat acceptance of a freeze up to the 31st of March but a real dramatic impact on investment programs if it were to be frozen beyond the 31st just to ask John Karen and Aaron whether you feel that any decision takes then beyond should be a complaint by financial assistance to the social sector to maintain the essential supply side programs and also programs to support tenants through the cost of living crisis sorry I'll be quite brief and just guess his answer to that question I think right I would share share John's view my caveat would be that the if you were to if it would be extended beyond the 31st of March it's not just in year one that the impact has felt financially by the business it's across the length of the business plan and and actually intervention and support from Scottish government while it would be welcome would only mitigate that year by year it doesn't it doesn't save the kind of impact over the course of business plan so even if that financial assistance were forthcoming and it there is still an impact over and still likely to be less delivery as a result over the 30 years of the Housing Association business okay thanks kimina thanks Mark I'm now going to move to questions from oh sorry Timothy wanted to come in here yeah thank you just come in quickly I think um build on what John Blackwood said about the variance is it's just a quick point you know we can't we must remember the environment that the private landlords are operating in you know higher costs to buy to let property through the additional surcharges that have increased higher interest rates High tax rental income they can no longer you know offset interest mortgage costs changes to the wear and tear allowance you know and the removal of the mandatory grounds possession and the impending Energy Efficiency costs so all these things you know are playing into the the cost factor for private landlords um going forward okay thanks very much for that additional Point miles would you like to come in with questions thank you Camino good morning to the panel thank you for joining us this morning um we've heard I think everybody talk about unintended consequences to this bill and I just wondered um given your expertise if there is any International example which hasn't resulted in fewer private lets a slumping building of affordable homes increased in future rents and more homelessness I don't I'm um okay I'm not overly familiar with the academic literature on um uh well not all of the academic literature on rent policy anyway um but I think it is you know these are important issues to to consider an important question to ask maybe it's one you can ask the minister later um but uh I think I mean from crisis perspective our policy on um on rents particularly in the in the private sector has has always been that that we should um introduce a uh you know a limit on annual renting increases linked to an inflationary measure and now at a time when inflation is approaching 10 um that you it kind of begs the question is you know is CPI or RPI the right sort of measure to link um uh rents to and I think you know we're more and more thinking that actually wage wage growth is a much more um effective way to to think about how this is actually affecting the the um people who live in those Tendencies so um I think transitioning out of this emergency legislation I think we're going to need um you know some some longer term you know policy we've seen a commitment to introducing a national system of rent controls and I think we need to consider uh what what that needs to look like and make sure that there's um a more permanent housing bill that is coming down the line to put in place uh that that kind of policy and do the proper consultation that needs to happen to to ensure that thank you for that I know in Ireland where they've put in place a similar scheme we've seen a 30 increase in homelessness so I wonder if anyone else from the panel want to come in on consequences in different countries which are aware of [Music] um not issues but I guess in the UK you had 70 years of rent controls and that was the 70 years when building supply was at its highest um if I'm correct in my UK history so I would say it is about sort of having a clear plan around Supply but rent controls are also a key plan of delivering affordable housing and so I think it is a bit um sort of a false argument to oppose both they should be working together in terms of how can we deliver affordable homes across Scotland thanks for that and Aaron would like to come in on this as well I'm not aware of any academic evidence of that sort um but but I think that we we don't have to look far uh to England or Wales where there are systems of social rent controls in place um so you know these are familiar across the UK but they have impacts Scotland uh traditionally has Scottish housing associations have been able to borrow at lower rates as we've not had government intervention in this area so if you look at the lending in Scotland Scottish housing associations it is often lower than comparable organizations in England Wales and that means that we can set lower rents because the the rate that we're paying for finance is lower and so the cost of government intervention is higher cost of borrowing and that ultimately means that we can build less okay I think the answer is probably no um and and similar to the previous uh Aaron Hill said not aware of anything um I mean I suppose in a way is the elephant in the room you know the rent pressure zones in Scotland that have been um you know now sort of paused through through the legislation um why haven't they been utilized local authorities ran the the were given the autonomy to run the the tenant hardship fund through covid so they're on the ground knowing what's going on in the in their in their in their boroughs and areas but no rent pressure zones are in play in Scotland okay sorry I just I just wanted to comment on the point about rent pressure zones in particular I think one of the main reasons that rent pressure zones were never introduced um was because there's a lack of like the the level um of data required to introduce one was was very high um and um we don't have the data currently and and so I think um just going back to Emma's point before I think the collection of of data on rents is is really crucial so that to inform all of us you know in terms of our policy decisions around around this thank you I'd agree with that but it kind of also feels like the horse might have bolted in terms of what this then provides us for people withdrawing rented properties private rented properties in in the future and John back would like would like to come in John that would like to come in yes thank you I guess adding to that point as well too I think there's always a danger with looking at International comparisons because we're never really looking at a light-for-like system so it needs different countries with different systems of Taxation different attitudes to living and housing conditioning accommodation and attitudes to home ownership as well too so we have to take all of that into consideration I think those things we can learn I think certainly from what we know from our research of it is that uh any kind of rent control effectively increases rent that might not be a bad thing it's maybe what we need to be looking at in Scotland is creating some kind of rent stabilization as opposed to control so there's many ways of actually dealing with Rising course which are incurred by the landlord as well as the tenant and also making sure that the rental return is sustainable in the long term for investors so it's always interesting to look at what happens in other parts of the country uh Supply is really other parts of the world sorry uh Supply is really really important we must never lose sight of that that unintended consequence is that we will try and investors out of Scotland and there'll be fewer and fewer properties available to rent now that's what we need to avoid at all costs thank you for that I wanted to to move on to the issue with regard to exemptions which we've now seen within the bill and wondered in terms of what seems to be quite a substantial a set of exemptions including substantial renter ears being included um as a factor what the panel's view was on potential impact of this um as exemptions I wanted to specifically ask with regards to the repossession of a property by a bank for example um if that would result in that property being able to be sold but an actual individual not being able to and whether or not the panel have any views on that um yeah I think you know there is evidence to suggest that um landlords are struggling with their mortgage repayments so I think them citizens advice Scotland released some data which said that um you know visits to their advice page on on mortgages um had increased by 270 or something in a year so yeah that is worrying and particularly uh if it's a buy to let mortgages I think if if repossessions are being sought by by the um by the lender then it does put the tenant at risk of of homelessness potentially um so I I think it's worth exploring whether in terms of that exemption um whether the tenant could actually stay in the property even if the ownership changes hands um that I mean we've we've only seen the bill at five o'clock last night so there hasn't been a huge amount of time to to you know consider that in detail but I know it's um something that other is in the sector are exploring um including our our friends at shelter Scotland as well yeah does anyone else have two coming on that point Emma around repossession I think yeah we believe it it's really really important to encourage the cell with a sitting tenant and that already happens um and or for um local authorities to have a right of a first buyback as well in order to increase local Authority housing stock um at Market at um sorry different valuation um and I think that does require more money from the Scottish government to enable um Council homes to uh cancer housing to buy back stock thanks and John Blackwood do you like to come in on this yes thank you I certainly do welcome the exemptions that's in the spill uh they are uh it's pleasing for me to see them in the in the sense that the minister for tenants rights has taken on board some of the concerns we expressed on behalf of landlords and letting agents to ensure that uh their interests would be represented in this bill so thank you to the the minister of Lieutenant rights for considering and putting in the bill infested of landlords and how their interests could be safeguarded in the long term I think there are other issues that we do need to have in there I think for instance notices that have already been issued prior to the 6th of September those likewise should be exempt we should be honoring those notices so that the tribunal can take them into consideration and as I say they should be exempt from the current bill there overall this is all about as I say encouraging investment keeping landlords in the sector and I don't really see that the government should be encouraging people to get into date we could have a situation here very very soon where landlords cannot afford to pay their mortgages another course it's not just about mortgage costs uh the cost of living means labor costs have gone out Parts have gone up so maintenance of properties is much more expensive now than it ever was and that's important that landlords maintain the properties properly so going forward this is going to be more of a challenge and some of these landlords could very soon find sales and financial difficulty and they need to take action ultimately to sell that property and exit the sector and what we're seeing with exemptions once they are welcome they don't go far enough to protect those landlords interests we could see a scenario here where a landlord could be in debt and they can't do anything about it legally because of this bill for an excess of 12 months that's unacceptable but we do need to be looking at the time scales as to how these exemptions will apply and how landlords are supported as a result of them thanks very much and Timothy you wanted to come in yeah thank you and um I think just build on what what John has said um yeah I think we welcome the exemptions as much as we can but just to provide um a bit of insight and data on um some landlord notice requests you know one of our large letting agents in Scotland they managed just over 3 000 tenancies across Scotland in 2021 landlord notice requests 16 for arrears but landlords selling 66 notices in 2022 today up to the 22nd of September 18 notice requests for arrears 69 you know landlords selling and landlord selling request is up from 33 in 2020.
So if John has alluded to and others all roads lead back to supply and of course selling is one of the exemptions so thank you and I've got time for a very short final question with regards to what is this zero percent cap initially being proposed um I think the Scottish housing um Federation of housing associations suggested that on average 3.2 percent was likely to be the increase um across your members um in the future when this is lifted by government what level of increase will you then expect for for members to to recoup what will be a significant hit on finances for providing you know day-to-day running of the organization repairs and also future 10-year plans around affordable housing developments and Aaron I specifically mentioned your organization so happy to start with you yeah thanks I think I think the 3.2 figure was for was for last year's rent increases so for for 2122 and I think and as I said earlier that was below inflation at the time which which now was set significantly below inflation um I haven't got a bit figured I can easily point to but we were talking to our members around rent increases in the four five six percent uh region significantly below you know what was anticipated to be inflation of of anywhere between 12 and 18 at that point and so we're not looking at massive rent increases I think it's really important when we come back to how those rent increases are paid so around 70 of of the rent bill in social housing is paid for by by benefits and and there is already significant targeted work for for self-payers and for those who are who are in work or not in receipt of Universal Credit or housing benefit so I think you know were we to were we to be in a position where rents could increase from the first of April it would be a moderate increase um that would largely be paid for by the treasury and there's something here about that is investment from UK government into stock into Scotland and Scottish homes and to Scottish communities and to forego a rent increase would mean Scotland losing out on investment from from the treasury is also a really important point that the treasury in its considerations at the moment around Universal Credit need to make sure that benefits operating reflect the true cost of living here so that we don't end up with with a squeeze on both sides um but any rent increase that follows would be moderate I think what's really important for us is that you know we we are working with ministers we are working with officials at the moment to work out what the situation looks like post first of March the sector has has an offer to make on the cost of living has an offer to make on you know lots of the action that we take with tenants and with communities and but it requires that moderate small rent price to to allow that to happen thanks and Emma you would like to come in um I just wanted to come in around the rent consultation that um were mentioned by Aaron and I think there we see a lot of variation between Housing Association and it would be very good to have stand of of best practice around that um because in some of the biggest housing associations where there is about 85 000 tenants there is a thousand three hundred and forty three tenants who responded to the consultation and only 738 who Earth 7 738 tenants who said they were in favor of a rent increase so if you look at 85 000 people versus 730 people saying now in favor of a rent increase that shows very very low participation rate and so that is in one of the largest Housing Association there is other housing associations that do that much better so I think there's really interesting things around best practices around consultations that should be shared and potentially enforced a bit more thank you thanks beforehand I think it's worth putting on the record last week we um passed the tenants Charter to look at how that could be improved this will obviously bypass that for associations and councils so I think that work kind of has also now been put to one side to give tenants that voice thank you thanks miles now going to move on to questions from Marie McNair uh thanks convener and good morning Paul it's great to see you this morning thanks for your time and I'm going to cover working on evictions and monitorium um and a poison first question to living rent in crises and to what extent is the proposed eviction moratorium and needed to protect tents from the current cost crisis and we've covered it slightly at the the moratorium is needed just for the simple fact that people can't afford to eat and Heat their homes let alone pay rent as well they it's just not it's just not doable to do all of it having a rent moratorium just gives people that extra bit of security knowing that they're not going to lose their home um and it is also the fact that by giving that security it will also help mental and physical health not having to worry about it maybe being able to spend a bit more on heating I'm aware that that could potentially end up leading to rent areas however it's cold people need to stay warm they need to stay healthy and they need to be secure and if the the more time isn't put in place then people are going to lose their homes and as was already been pointed out many times there isn't any not temporary accommodation and too many people in homelessness already the system can't take anymore so the moratorium is just really important thank you um I couldn't put it better than Caroline has herself in terms of why this is important at this particular moment in time and so yeah again as you know as a temporary measure um but um you know we think that much longer term support is is needed and we need to actually change the the system how the system responds to people who are at risk of um eviction and importantly at risk of homelessness because those aren't aren't the same thing not everyone who faces eviction faces homelessness um but yeah we crisis thinks that rather than delaying the period in which a landlord is seeking to repossess a property we believe it's more important to to introduce um a stronger focus on the on the role of both social and private landlords in um working with the tenant to prevent homelessness and through advice and support provided to both tenants and landlords um to help the you know prevent the the situation deteriorating towards towards eviction and so um at the risk of sounding like a broken record I think the prevention of homelessness duties is a real opportunity to do that um and there's some really good work um that has been carried out by um a sfha on you know how how landlords um can do more to help sustain tenancies and it's worth being aware as well that um actually it's it's a relatively small proportion um of evictions um which as a result of of renter is well I'm talking about the the social sector here in particular um it's actually you know there's a there's a lot of other reasons why people uh lose uh their Tendencies or you know abandon their tenancies around antisocial behavior and relationship breakdown like a lot of different things there so I think we need to we shouldn't just be focusing on the the financial um kind of situation in terms of what drives people to that that position um so yeah Timothy and then Emma yeah I want to pick up on that point around sustaining tenances um totally agree and it's all in in the setup you know unlike other parts of the UK the PRT Providence so residential tenancy agreement is a written tenancy it's pretty robust it sets out you know the rights and responsibilities you know any letting agent landlord worth assault will do a check-in checkout report you know inventory they'll keep regular Communications and check-ins with with the tenants keep all invoices all written communication they'll do a welcome pack you know housekeeping advice and contacting emergency so there is a lot going on that already exists to sustain tendencies that agents and landlords are working hard to do and and just to add I think it's really really important that the two aspects of the world Bill work together because especially given the loophole around in between tenancy increases if we don't have protections against evictions then tenants will be evicted so landlords can increase the rent in between tenancies and the second thing we wanted to say is really around enforcement and avoiding that um sort of unlawful eviction so abusive a ground for eviction or illegal eviction and really enforcing that so it's not um attractive to do an illegal eviction and the last thing is this is very much about the enforcement so the eviction orders and we see a lot of tenants um feeling very stressed just by having a notice um and so during covet times one thing that happened was an increased notice period and for eviction and we think that was incredibly helpful for tenants because most tenants leave after being sort of noticed not after receiving an eviction order thank you thanks I'm just going to bring in John John Kerr and and then Aaron and then Timothy thanks and just to make a quick brief point and I agree where everyone has been said in terms of eviction oratorium but I think it's crucial that that with that that there is direct assistance to tenants who are are struggling both in such terms have always been mentioned before the tennis support Grant but also what myself and Aaron specifically I've mentioned in satiranza hey what social landlords do at Presence at terms of direct financial assistance to to tenants who ask that struggling that there is a an allowance of that that can still continue to ensure over this opinion eviction moratorium that we're not just kicking the can down the road and so people are still racking up uh quite high levels a day going forward but I think that's quite uh to show as well that direct assistance is available thank you thanks John and Aaron yeah I think I would agree with what John said there I think of the general Point around evictions moratoriums you know it is of less concern than the action on rent but that doesn't make it straightforward um during the pandemic housing associations committee is not to evict anybody in rent areas who was engaging with their landlord um and you know the work that Rihanna has pointed to around tenancy sustainment is really important so we're we're working with our members to you know really Drive good practice share examples of what works in that in that space and have worked with crisis and others to create a toolkit to help them to do that so the focus has to be on tendency statement there's a you know really small number of people evicted for ranzarias from from Housing Association properties and it is absolutely always as a last resort um so that focus on tendency system is really important the um the exemptions that were mentioned earlier are critical um for for Community cohesion so ensuring that personal safety when it comes to things like domestic abuse and nasp um are able to be guaranteed that that's really really important OB W site of that within the building thanks Aaron and Timothy you wanted to come yeah thank you just to pick up again on on the you know and lawful evictions Point well there's already large fines that can be issued I think it's imprisonment you know for two for two years again with the PRT there's an easy read and supported notes and of course the the first tier tribunal access is free to use and I think the final point is around the monitorium well we are moving towards since first of October the the discretionary grounds are in play anyway which um I think you know were deemed an emergency measure but have come to know great thanks for that point um Marie yeah I'll just go back to John care um obviously John you're saying you're supportive of the eviction monitorium in any circumstances where an eviction should be allowed in and if so why don't care yeah I think Adam touched on it in terms of exemptions so that the affections roundabouts are communication uh and when there's that link at interior safety insert terms anti-social grounds domestic abuse and those of those like thankfully I've started covered inside terms of the legislation cycle going forward I think we were talking about here's the financial element and I think at the moment in terms of the precious in the homelessness system it's already been mentioned at pause and Saturday and affections until March 23 as as today welcome to notwithstanding those exemptions are in place I think it's crucial that those can still take place to uh to ensure a safety individuals are going forward thank you thank you uh one final question and I'll direct that to John black with um what is the impact of eviction moratorium landlords likely to be uh and if you have any evidence um from anywhere on eviction monitorium um that would be interested to the committee well I think us my colleagues in the panel have emphasized to think it's important we all try and work together to sustain tenancies and ultimately that's what a private landlord wants they don't want to evict a tenant so we really need to look at ways in which we can encourage landlords to work with their tenants and tenants with the landlords as a c to sustain the tenancies long term we've got good examples of how that worked during the pandemic so we were pleasantly surprised and encouraged the tenants being able to afford to pay the rent and landlords to be able to work with the tenants in order to make sure that those tenancies break down and I think that's really really important and we we have a role to place an organizations as I'm sure everybody on the panel here has to work together to to help sustain those Tendencies from a private landlord's point of view what's important to remember is they're not big corporate organization they are individuals with one or two properties and the cost of living increase in men could actually make the difference between them wanting to continue to rent that property or effectively sell that property and we need to make sure those appropriate mitigations in place to support them so I think the exemptions are welcome uh and as already said we we welcome them within the bill but we do need to look a bit more closely once we've had a bit more time to go through the bill as to the Practical implications of that how long in essence would it take a landlord in extreme circumstances to repossess that property if they needed to sell Island and that's I'm afraid what it could come through with interest rates Rising the way we expect them to be lots of landlords might be in a position of seeing somebody I just cannot afford to have this rental property anymore we have to be prepared for that thanks I was asking in the what the impact on eviction moratorium would be for landlords we want to maybe add a bit more on to that well it's about investor confidence I mentioned earlier so lots of landlords you know there are investors and I always see that landlords who invest obviously in property are reluctant to investors and we've just seen as a result of interventions from the UK governments and their policy decisions over the last couple of weeks have investors there have felt really nervous and we're seeing that here in Scotland in the private rented sector over the last month landlords have been literally running to the hills thing rather than put my property back on the market for rent I'm just going to put it on the market for sale now so we we want to try and avoid that happening we want to encourage them to stay so one of the biggest issues for landlords is if they are wondering whether actually will ever be able to repossess this property if my tenant doesn't pay rent can I ever move back into the property will I be able to sell it these These are big issues for investors and we need to answer these landlords thank you very much thanks Marie and uh now I'd like to bring in Ella Eleanor whittam uh with questions thank you very much convener and good morning to the panel a lot of my questions have already been asked but I do have one roundabout data so we've already discussed um the the nature of the fact that we've got a lot of data gaps and hopefully housing bill will help us to sort that out but particularly focused on social justice we do know that um individuals who are facing the worst brunt of the cost prices and tend to be women tend to be people who have disabilities tend to be people from black and minority ethnic communities and I'm just wondering how we ensure that we we collect the data that we need to understand how is this intervention this you know and I hear people calling a stacking plaster an emergency situations often it's only a sticking plaster that we can apply but how do we make sure that those people who need it most benefit from this policy considering we don't generally collect disaggregated gender data we don't understand the intersectionality all the time and how policies are applied and you know just thinking as well it's been mentioned um you know with regards to the tenant and Grant fund and discretionary housing payments um how do we actually ensure that the Scottish welfare fund is applied effectively who collects this data and how do we make sure that we get the intended outcome so I don't know if I can ask Rhiannon about that or perhaps em and Caroline from from the perspective of of tenants in your organizations Rhiannon yeah I think I mean those are really important questions to be asking um I'm not sure that I have um any solutions right now um but I think um it's certainly something that I'd be Keen to to come back to you on in terms of um what what kinds of data we need to collect uh to know which households in particular uh this is um benefiting and which who who is missing out really and I think um yeah I do think it goes back to that question of um how we make sure that the uh targeted support available to to increase people's incomes is going to to those households that we know um are at highest risk of poverty you know the households that are um you know right at the front of the Scottish government's tackling child poverty action plan and you know those at-risk households need to be the ones um that we're that we're um protecting them the most so yeah I'll come back to you Caroline for me it would be communication there is an over emphasis on everything being online and in English providing more information in other forms and providing it in different languages mean that more people will be able to access the help that they need specifically these groups and I also know that in Edinburgh and I'm sure in other areas of the country there are a lot of organizations and trusts and Charities who specifically work with the demographics you're talking about and who will be responding and helping out individuals from these communities um I would suggest contacting them and finding out who who they're seeing what they what the concerns are what help has been asked for I think there is a lot of information out there it's just speaking to the right people to get it thank you and Aaron you would like to come on uh in on this question too yeah I think I think while we you know while we could always uh improve data across the board actually when it comes to government there's there's a role for there's a role for Scottish housing regulated here in terms of the data that they capture um housing associations are all already undertaken an exercise exercise to understand you know the protective characteristics within their organization which will help inform policy you know in a way that hopefully addresses some of the issues that you've raised I think when it comes to to the red consultations which are touched on um while Emma is Right earlier the point you made earlier that you know that can be better that consultation can be wider within that there is targeted Outreach um within rent consultations within wider tenant engagement there was there was a targeted Outreach for many organizations to uh communities into groups with protective characteristics to help identify where we're actually going to be taken and and all of the rent decisions that are taken by housing associations are informed by a significant amount of data so sfha provides an affordability tool which plugs in lots of government cwp and other data to ensure that decisions are informed and are are taken in a way that allows us to to ameliorate some of the worst accesses of of the challenges that we're facing thanks Aaron and John Blackwood you indicated you wanted to come in yes I think we had some experience of this during the pandemic where landlords were seeing they were often the first people to hear of the tenants struggling to not just pay the rent but pay their bills and live and those landlords were really unsure as to how to signpost the tenants and how to support lieutenant and when they were approaching local advice agencies for instance uh to access different welfare funds which we were telling that we could be available to the tenants and they were saying they weren't getting anywhere because they were being told it had to be dependently approached them in the first instance so I think there needs to be more joined up thinking about appropriate sign posting and supporting tenants through these difficult times and landlords are key to that because probably deal with the person hopefully who has the good relationship with the tenant to be able to see I know where you need to go there's a requirement for the landlord to do that through the pre-action requirements when it comes to dealing with rent areas but there's still some uh up a lack of joined up thinking I would say as to how we could best support all parties to make sure that support is given to the tenants and and in particular those in need at that time okay thank you very much for that and um so thanks everybody we've kind of reached our time I hope that you were able to convey to us everything you really wanted to convey um and I now suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow for a change of witnesses foreign thank you we're now joined for our second session on the emergency legislation on a rent freeze and a moratorium on evictions by the minister for zero carbon buildings active travel and tenants rights and I welcome Mr Harvey to the meeting Mr Harvey is a company today by Scottish government officials Amanda calligan who is the head of private Housing Services James Hamilton who's a lawyer from the Scottish government legal directorate Adam kravchick who is the head of housing homelessness and regeneration analysis and Shazia razak who is the Strategic lead on University policy governance and equalities and before I open up the session to questions for members I invite Mr Harvey to make a short opening statement thank you very much convener and good morning to colleagues across the committee I'm really grateful for the opportunity to speak on the cost of living tenant protection Scotland bill which we introduced to Parliament yesterday and for uh the committee agreeing to take evidence at what I know is very short notice my colleagues and I also listened to the first panel of witnesses and I'm grateful to all those who've contributed to the debate as members are aware this emergency Bill aims to provide critical temporary protection for people who rent their homes we know that tenants on average have lower household incomes higher levels of poverty and are more vulnerable to economic shocks 63 percent of social rented households and 40 percent of private rented households don't have enough savings to cover even a month of income at the poverty line that's compared to 24 of households buying with a mortgage and nine percent who own out right so tenants are particularly exposed to the cost crisis and with that context in mind the bill has three key aims first to protect tenants stabilizing their household costs by freezing rent then to reduce the impact of evictions and homelessness through a moratorium on evictions and finally to avoid tenants being evicted from the private rented sector by a landlord wanting to raise rents between tenancies through the temporary measures and reduce unlawful evictions the provisions are intended to be in place until the 31st of March in the first instance and Scottish ministers can with approval by Parliament extend for two further six months periods should circumstances and evidence show that to be necessary similar to the approach to the coronavirus emergency legislation the ongoing necessity and proportionality of the provisions will be reviewed and reported on regulation to suspend or expire any provision that's no longer appropriate must be brought forward convenient I I know that time is limited I want to give a very brief overview of the main Provisions in the bill the rent freeze uh first of all uh we intend to achieve this by setting a variable cap on the level of increases in rents initially set at zero percent until 31st of March next year it'll operate separately for the Social and private rented sectors and will apply to all rent increases notice notices served on or after the 6th of September the day of the program for government announcement to reflect the various circumstances that landlords might face we've allowed for applications to increase rent for prescribed and legitimate costs associated with offering the property for rent when those costs have increased Rises are restricted to a maximum of three percent of rent although ministers will have the power subject again to parliamentary scrutiny to propose a change to that percentage recognizing that some of the most economically vulnerable people live in the social rented sector we believe it's an important signal of equal protection to cover both sectors however to reflect the critical differences in the nature and structure of the social oriented sector we are already working closely with the sector to consider what should happen after 31st of March on the moratorium on eviction we intend to prevent the enforcement eviction action in the private and social oriented sector and in College University Halls of residence and purpose-belt student accommodation these restrictions will apply to all eviction orders issued in proceedings raised after the moratorium comes into force it will also apply to proceedings raised before the moratorium comes into Force where the eviction notice was served on or after the 6th of September the moratorium will not apply to eviction orders granted in proceedings before this legislation came into Force this will ensure that no one is evicted in a case started after or as a result of the program for government announcement recognizing again that the cost crisis is also impacting on some landlords we have allowed for specific limited exemptions to deal with serious cases of anti-social or criminal Behavior substantial levels of rent areas or property being repossessed and sold by a mortgage lender convenient we know that the majority of landlords are Law Abiding and responsible and are appalled and frustrated at those landlords who try to bypass the law to evict people unfairly so to guard against this the bill also makes important changes to the way in which civil damages can be awarded for unlawful evictions making it easier for tenants to challenge them and less attractive for landlords to carry them out by substantially increasing the potential damages and finally the rent adjudication Provisions in the bill look ahead to a time when hopefully we'll be transitioning out of the emergency measures as the the economic circumstances change and this part of the bill gives the power to adjust the adjudication process to avoid a cliff Edge effect and again that will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny so to summarize convenient the legislation we're proposing will help keep people in their homes and help stabilize their housing costs during this extraordinary cost crisis we believe the package of measure strikes the right balance between this aim and ensuring landlords can continue to offer properties for rent and manage tenancies sustainably so I look forward to your questions and the discussion thank you very much thank you very much for that opening statement and for for outlying um kind of high level of what the bill is intended to do um we you know we had a very constructive session this morning I think it was made even more so because of the um Advanced publishing of the bills so that people were participating were able to actually see what was contained so I appreciate that um that that occurred so there's quite a range of things that were covered I think one of the things early on in the conversation um came through from the social um uh um social housing sector and um so you know there's always that tension I think we have that conversation quite often here the tension between the need for supply of housing um the retrograting piece and keeping tenancy affordable and I think one of the concerns that was raised by Aaron Hill in the previous session was the fact that um you know suddenly Scotland has always enjoyed a good relationship with lenders um social in the social rented sector um and that they their the lenders have been spooked by the announcement of this bill and and um you know Aaron talked about the need for certainty and sustability going forward and he had also talked about the fact that you have already been working with them and I'd just be interested to hear about you know what you think about you know that concern and how we can ensure that the social housing sector has that um stability so that they can meet that Supply because uh you know additionally we heard from crisis that there you know the housing the homelessness issue is escalating and Supply is part of the issue yes first of all I was very pleased to see Angel acknowledge and I think one of his first answers uh that an emergency response is necessary and I think that that desire to protect tenants is shared between the government and the sector itself social landlords uh are non-profit organizations they exist to provide affordable housing and we recognize that a huge amount is being asked to the sector generally in terms of provision of Supply in terms of Maintenance and the the retrofit agenda uh to to address the uh The Net Zero challenges that the whole Parliament has agreed are important it is important to recognize that there are significant factors that operate differently in the social rented sector than the private rented sector the existing requirements to consult with tenants on rent setting the fact that rental income is reinvested in probation and in quality and of course not least the the fact that a higher proportion of tenants in the social rented sector access benefits and so some of uh and what would happen if there was a a prolonged and extended rent freeze some of that would benefit not the tenants actually but the the UK treasury so we are conscious of all of these differences and more we're already working closely with the sector not only to reassure them but also to reassure their lenders that the government will take a proportionate and a responsible approach sfha and others have been invited to and agreed to participate in a short life task and finish working group that will look at these issues it's already begun meeting and those discussions have been very constructive I know that there are some people in the social oriented sector who have concerns but I've also spoken to many who actually see a positive opportunity to make sure that we're protecting tenants at what is a very very difficult time no decision as I said in Parliament last week no decisions has been made about what would happen to the cap after the 31st of March will make that decision in a responsible way bearing in mind how the economic circumstances change over time but also the arguments and and discussions that we take forward with the social related sector thanks very much for that I'd like to go into a little bit of detail around the um the rent the rent freeze so one of the concerns that came up in the previous session was the fact that between tenancy you know around between tenancy increases so the bill does not affect rent increases between tenancies and it'd be interesting to hear you know thinking about that and the concern of you know how do we protect tenants who might be needing to move between tenancies and one place that one situation that might take places for students but in other situations as well okay so you're not thinking still about the social oriented sector you I'm talking in general yeah okay so the uh the rent freeze measures do apply to end tenancy rent increases and the the central reason for that is that that's the mechanism we already have in terms of challenging uh tenants right to challenge unreasonable rent increases within the tenancy the requirement for that to be only once a year in the private rented sector and with three months notice so it's it's very clear that we have the ability uh to intervene in a short period of time in response to the current emergency there is of course the longer term argument many of which many questions of which were consulted on in the New Deal for tenants consultation and which remain uh questions that we'll address in the longer term legislative work that the government has in the uh in relation to the private rented sector okay thanks for that I'm going to move on to questions from Willie coffee thanks very much good morning Minister um you might have heard the some of the contributions in the previous session suggesting that the proposal May in fact lead to a a feeling that tenants don't have to pay the rent at all it might give the green light to non-payment at all and I think a couple of the contributors mentioned that Minister could I have your your view on on that and what this Scottish government's thinking is in that that matter yes in in many ways the uh the suggestion uh is uh slightly akin to the idea that all landlords will take the most uh exploitative or opportunistic approach I don't think that's true the majority of uh landlords will obey the law and not try to to get around it the majority of tenants uh will also meet their responsibilities there's a concern that a minority might be tempted to uh to stop paying their rent altogether even when they can afford it that's one of the reasons why we thought long and hard about the exemptions from the eviction moratorium and decided on balance that there was a requirement to include severe rent arrears as a as an Exempted grounds uh from the the moratorium in my view and you know we'll we'll discuss this at length in the chamber this afternoon as well of course the kind of support that tenants with rent areas need is different than the interventions in the the rest of the system they need direct support as I think the the wetness from crisis uh made this point as well this morning they need direct support through the discretionary housing payments and the Tenant Grant fund we have not only increased the amount of support that's available directly for tenants who are facing rent areas but also increase the flexibility in the way that it can be offered and we'll continue to look at how that might be developed further but including that exemption from the moratorium I think will give some confidence to landlords that there won't be this incentive uh that as I say only a minority of people would ever be tempted to to do this but to no incentive to Simply stop paying rent altogether and I think I remember hearing John would welcome that measure as well is the government thinking about setting a level that would constitute substantial areas thereof some thinking in the bill that would give some comfort to private landlords should that situation arise yes we're defining uh substantial rental areas as six months or up to or the equivalent of six months of rent in the private rented sector we're using a specific figure is it 2250 in the social rented sector which is roughly equivalent to six months average rent in the social rented sector um man if you want to come in yeah um I was just saying the uh average average rent for PRS it's not specific figure it's the six months but it would be around four thousand six hundred and thirty two is around six months of average PRS rent so it's just to give you a ballpark okay that's very helpful to clarify that point it was really important part of the previous discussion I think my other question can be enough for me was that previous contributors also said that in circumstances we're a landlord themselves may find themselves going into debt as a result of the measures they feel that they have no no recourse to do anything whatsoever to to to get themselves of that out of that the and the question was posed about whether our landlord could sell their property under those circumstances or not um could you clarify whether a lot is is possible for a landlord who owns a property to sell that property during this period of the legislation yes indeed and I think it's important to acknowledge that landlords particularly the private renting sector are not all the same kind of uh of uh in the same kind of financial circumstances some are very large very profitable uh others as uh as John Blackwood I think was saying are you know someone who's ended up for whatever reason perhaps unintentionally uh found themselves letting out one or two uh properties um and some of them will be facing uh the the cost of living crisis and and worried about their own circumstances and so we have included uh versions of the existing grounds for Action which had to do with the intention to sell or the intention to live in a property but the the adapted version that we're including in the on a temporary basis in the emergency legislation is the intention to do that to address their own financial hardship and we're what with the tribunal uh on how that is implemented obviously we don't want a a landlord who would face the risk of of severe debt or even homelessness themselves to be unable to take action and so those limited and prescribed um forms of eviction grounds will be included and you can you can see that in the text of the Bell that's really helpful Minister thanks very much thank you thanks Willie now going to move to questions from Paul McClellan yeah thank you convener um obviously conscious team I'll try and keep it to the one question you've probably seen in the previous question and I'm going to start around about how should Scottish government monitor an impact the impact that entries and what factors does it need to consider and whether it extensively is beyond March 2023 and you've always touched on on the longer term legislative change but it's really just on the fact how are we going to monitor this in the next six months and I suppose that's something that really interests this committee not only the end of the six months but going through that six months as well so it's just if you could discuss a little bit around about how you see the Scottish government doing that in the next six months yes thank you we've we've modeled some of the uh reporting requirements as well as the provisions on expiring or extending the the provisions in the the bill uh on you know a model that would be fairly familiar to those that followed the the emergency coronavirus legislation um we I think it's important to acknowledge and this was discussed in the the earlier panel as well that we're doing this in a situation where we have not yet dealt with some of the longer term work that needs to be done on data in the private rated sector in particular Aaron Hill I think made the point that we have more data and the the existence of the regulator collecting some of this data for the social rented sector it's extremely useful we don't have that in relation to the private rented sector and that's one of the reasons why the government has a long-term goal uh not just of collecting more data and having the the mechanisms and Machinery in place to do that but also of creating a regulator for the private rented sector we will continue to to Monitor and report on the operation of the emergency legislation I think we're conscious that some of the data that's being collected real time is only going to come in as we're having to make decisions and so we want to work very closely with stakeholders including those in the private social and student accommodation sectors to make sure that our decisions are informed by their expertise supplementary there's obviously stakeholders hopefully that would include the committee because again obviously it would be important for us not just to get to the end of the six months and then you know decide and discuss what our views in that I think it would be important for the committee to almost be kept and probably some Noble days at the end of the discussion the enemy but from your own point of view I think it would really be helpful if the committee could be kept up to date in regards to that as well so we can discuss almost that you know at that particular stage rather than the end of the six months so that would be good to get that commitment from yourself myself that was okay I'm very happy to to give that commitment obviously the Bell specifies that the reporting requirements on government to Parliament but we'd be very happy to have a discussion with the committee about what's the the best way of making sure that the committee is involved in those discussions thanks very much Paul and yes thanks Minister very very much appreciate the the elements in the bill that that do have reporting requirements to Parliament um I'd like to bring in Mark Griffin thanks committee and good morning Minister I just have a question around the effective uh rent cap period I think you said the neuroplane statement that the rink cap would apply to notices made on or after the 6th of the ninth um this year so does that mean that any notice given to a private tenant before the sixth is still um actionable and so can can rent Rises go ahead up until the 5th of December what we've been most Keen to avoid is rent increased notices being issued in response to the announcement of the the rent freeze policy and that I think is uh what the first Minister committed to and what we have managed to achieve in this rent increase notices issued after that date will be covered by the uh the rent cap I don't think it's possible to be more retrospective than that and go back in time to prevent rent increased notices that were issued in good faith in terms of the rules as they stood before that announcement was made so I you know I recognize that there'll be some people perhaps who who will think that all of these measures go far too far and are too interventionists there'll be others who think they don't go far enough and we should be able to do a lot more I think we have the balance right in terms of protecting tenants from rent increases that are prompted in response to the announcement but without uh you know without doing what is would be legally questionable and and I think unfair uh in preventing uh the uh the the notices that were issued before that uh in good faith from having effect okay so just to be clear then rent you it's the government's view then that rent Rises can legally go ahead up until the 5th of December uh rent increase notices that were issued before the 6th of September will not be covered by the cap okay and just to talk about at the the other end of the freeze then is that the government's understanding then that around increased notification can't be issued up to included in the 31st of March meaning that any rent rise couldn't take effect until the the first of July so that the effective um rent cap period would be the 6th of December to the 1st of July that is my understand correct on that the cap if the cap continues in place at zero percent until the 31st of March which is our current intention albeit there is the power to remove these earlier or to extend it further but if it remains zero percent until the 31st of March a rent increase notice notice uh issued in that period would need to be consistent with that zero percent cap okay so just again just for clarity so in my understanding is that the the effective rent cap period would be the 6th of December to the the first of July as long as no Provisions were um effectively repealed I mean I I think it's a it's a matter of interpretation what what you mean by the rent increase notice the the rent freeze period a rent increase notice under the the previous legislation is the the mechanism by which a landlord increases the rent that action cannot take place inconsistent with the cap from the 6th of September onwards uh until uh or unless the the cap is removed or changed okay I'm just asking the questions purely on the the basis of what a tenant would experience and what their practical experience would be better I think I've got Clarity from the ministers thanks Thanksgiving and I think it's worth adding that you know a large part of this is about the reassurance and stability that people need and so from the 6th of September as the first Minister said in announcing the program for government people can have confidence that they will not be issued with a rent increase notice that will go be on the cap or at least if they do that means their landlord will be acting unlawfully and there are provisions and measures that can get them redressed in those circumstances okay thank you we're now going to move to questions from Miles Briggs thank you convenient good morning Minister good morning to your officials as well um I wanted to ask a couple of short questions at the First with regards to um legal competence does the minister and can you confirm if this legislation is echr protocol one article one compliant yes uh the members are aware that the government needs to satisfy ourselves on advice on that that point and the Parliament indeed the presiding officer needs to be satisfied uh on that point of of legal competence uh before a bell is introduced Pat thank you to that and given the concerns you've expressed previously um about the unworkability of such Bill do you expect a legal challenge to this bill uh I haven't expressed concerns about the unworkability of this bill I'm I'm satisfied that this Bell is is compliant and consistent with devolved competence so the concerns expressed about Labor's proposals previously what has changed in terms of what you've brought forward yes well I think as we discussed at some length in the in the chamber what was proposed as a late amendment to coronavirus recovery and reform Bill whose purpose of course was to look at the coronavirus emergency legislation and decide which elements of it should be made permanent a completely new provision was was brought in there which would have been amounted to a near blanket uh rent freeze for a period of two years uh and uh as a as I think we we debated in the chamber uh there was very little argument brought forward from uh the member behind that amendment to suggest that uh that was legally competent in terms of of echr compliance so I I think that approach would have been um much more clearly subject to Legal challenge uh I'm confident that we uh are bringing forward a bell now which not only responds to an emergency situation in an appropriate way but also in a balanced way that reflects the uh the interests and circumstances of both landlords and tenants thank you for that um I wanted to ask with regards to um levels of rent and during the pandemic many landlords did reduce rent to help sustain Tendencies um and so I wondered in terms of this legislation does that cover the rents which were reduced or contracted levels of rent um so people who have currently seen potentially a 20 discount in rent is it the contracted level you expect to be covered or that reduced level will a rent increase notice needs to tell a tenant how much the landlord intends to change the rent from the current rent level and rent increased notices during this period will have to be consistent with the the cap as it stands at any particular time zero percent initially with the potential to to change it there are of course some flexibilities built in particularly where landlords are facing increased costs uh that are out with their control as a result of letting the the property making the property available for for rent and those uh those increased costs will be within uh clearly defined limits which are 50 of the uh the increased costs and a total three percent of existing rent so rent increase notices have to be issued in that way in terms of their relationship to existing rent thank you for that and further in terms of um housing associations who are providing supported accommodation for vulnerable groups um What specifically will be within the bill for for them they have additional costs to support residents which is often built into rent increases has been a discussion with the sector um around that an additional costs they will be facing yeah I mean I would come back to the the earlier points made about engagement with the social oriented sector the social oriented sector uh not only operates in a different way than the private rented sector around reinvestment of rents around uh the the consultation mechanisms for uh rent setting and so on but it also provides a wider range of services all of these things as well as the investment in Supply and quality need to be protected and will engage actively with the the social oriented sector ahead well ahead of any decision in fact that active engagement is already underway and we'll make sure that we take account of of all of those circumstances nobody not neither the government nor tenants nor indeed the social rented sector itself would want to endanger those services thank you and in terms of exemptions um I think for clarity substantial renterios and what that actually meant in law is is something I think we need more clarity on specifically with regards to where ministers would see that sitting is it three months which I think is what's outlined in the Bill of non-payment of rent what we've set in the bill is as I said earlier to Willie coffee six months uh in relation to the private rented sector and a specific figure which is roughly equivalent to six months of social rent in the social rented sector right thank you for that and that's helpful and just finally uh convener um I put this question to the earlier panel because looking internationally around uh the world and where rent freezes or rent caps have been put in place the unintended consequences which the minister has said he's aware of are quite severe from fewer private lets from a stomping of the building and construction of affordable homes increased rents when properties are coming to Market and more homelessness if we look to Ireland a 30 increase in homelessness um is the minister concerned at all about what this will potentially do to the housing sector in Scotland which is already in a very vulnerable position I think we should all be concerned about the impact of housing policy and legislation uh on the housing sector on the housing systems which exists within our society we should be concerned about probation and about quality we should also be concerned about the rights and the experience that people have as tenants and one of the goals longer term of the government is to close the gap in outcomes between the social and rent private rented sectors because we regard adequate housing as a human right and that's the the goal that we have over the long term uh in the past there has been an increase in regulation in the private rented sector and that's gone alongside a substantial increase in the size of the private rented sector uh the member mentions some countries but perhaps we can we can all choose the comparisons we make selectively there are other European countries with a higher level of Regulation uh and in the long-standing systems of rent controls which have an even bigger private rented sector than Scotland so this can be done properly this can be done responsibly to make sure that we raise standards ensure that there's protection for tenants and tenants rights at the same time as making sure that our housing systems have adequate Supply and good quality thank you for that and given your title when there's a long title let's be honest um Net Zero is one of the key projects you've been working on Parliament has been discussing now most of the social housing sector already warning that rewriting their 10-year plans will impact on investment in that area um where do you think that will now be impacted because this if they cannot bring this income and plan that expenditure that could be the first casualty of this that these projects don't take place to retrofit decarbonize and work towards net zero well I come back again to the point that I made earlier that the intention of setting a zero percent cap until the end of March does not in fact have a direct impact on rental income in the social rented sector because they don't have constant in-year rent increases it tends to happen at the the start of the financial year and we're working closely with the sector to understand all of the uh implications about the way they work about the uh the the impact that any future decision on the the rank app would have on their business model and working with them to give assurance and confidence uh to their lenders as well the investment in probation of affordable social housing in repairs and maintenance and in Net Zero as well as the other services that Miles breaks quite rightly highlights in his earlier question these are all important points of Common Ground between government political parties and the social rented sector and I think uh in in the interest of tenants as well we need to recognize that the Net Zero investment is something that's absolutely in their interests I've spoken to social oriented tenants who are paying peanuts for their energy bills now after seeing Not Just Energy Efficiency but investment in zero emissions heating systems communal heating systems and and so on we want to see much more of that the Scottish government is already committing substantial investment to support that that work in the the social rented sector and working closely and collaboratively uh with social landlords many of whom have been leaders in this field we want that to continue and I'm certain that it will thank you thanks Camilla thanks Mars I'm now going to bring in Marie McNair hey thank you computer most of my questions have been covered I wanted to kind of further explore the conversations announcers had with the social housing sector uh since the announcement um obviously given the kind of um emergency nature of the legislation do you have in further to add on that minister yes well myself and the cabinet secretary have both had one-to-one conversations with a number of individual rsls and social landlord bodies uh uh social related sector bodies and we've had I think two meetings now of the task and finish Group which began um I think two weeks ago and had another meeting last week and um as I said earlier sfhe and others are involved in that and I think making very valuable contributions I'm convinced that there is creativity to be brought to bear on this question around how we protect tenants in what Aaron Hill earlier acknowledged is an emergency situation that requires an emergency response but also support the social rented sector to continue to deliver the the high quality and affordable housing that we know is so important in communities across Scotland thanks Marie and I'm going to move on to questions from Annie Wells thank you convener good morning um Minister um just something that one of my colleagues brought up last week in the chamber Jamie green spoke about housing associations and not being able to increase the rents but maybe having to put a stop to maintenance or modernization programs and I was just wondering what conversations you've had regarding this because like Jamie my mums are a housing a house Association tenant and she's worried about will she get a rewire and done and stuff like that so how can we give people confidence that these things will still go ahead absolutely I mean I think in terms of giving confidence to individual tenants there's a huge amount of work that the government is already doing and more to come on Communications uh with people about the cost of living crisis about the support that's available uh and about the the advice that they can take to to minimize their own exposure to that to that crisis in terms of the the sector uh I would come back to the exactly the same points that I made to Miles Briggs about working closely with the sector ahead of any decision about the future of the cap the six-month period the initial six month period uh to the end of March does not directly impact on social landlord's rental income what it does do is give a clear Focus to make sure that we work with them to make a decision that's well informed by their perspective on the um the future operation of a cap and the future of how to support tenants as well not just in terms of the uh the investment in in quality of properties it repairs and maintenance and Net Zero but also in those wider services that social landlords provide we're actively engaging with them and as I said earlier I think there's real creativity being brought to bear can I just add one more question um the rent pressure zones legislation how successful has that been for councils uh in my view it's been exactly as successful as I thought it would be I was uh I welcomed at the time the fact that something was being tried but I was skeptical that rent pressure zones were going to be enough to to solve the problem and I think the the lack of data that local authorities have available to them if they were to take forward rent pressure zones and as we know none of them have done I think the reason is that they don't have the data that can allow them to to justify that and potentially be exposed to uh to the the threat of of legal challenge if someone was to argue that was a disproportionate interference in in landlord's rights so we need in the long term as we develop our longer term proposals for reform of the the rented sector and including the national system of rent controls we need to make sure that we're also filling in those those data gaps that exist rent pressure zones um you know if if we had seen them put into practice if we'd seen them work uh then we might be in a very different position but in my view that that Bell was uh was unlikely to be successful uh that rpzs were unlikely to be put into practice and actually reduced anyone's rent and indeed that's what's come to pass so we now are in a situation where as I said earlier some landlords are being very responsible and trying to protect tenants from uh rent increases weather in terms of the cost of living or indeed over the the years of the pandemic but others as I'm sure members from across the country are aware are imposing eye-watering rent increases uh I I will be far from the only Glasgow MSP uh who's heard from tenants who are seeing 20 30 40 increases uh simply unmanageable unaffordable unsustainable and will not take place under this legislation thanks Annie uh and now uh welcome Eleanor with him with questions thanks convener and welcome Minister and to your officials um I'll start with a question that I'd ask the first panel um and for me as the community of the social justice committee um I have always been keenly aware of the fact that we don't really always have a gendered analysis and disaggregated um data specifically when it comes to issues around about poverty inequality and the housing sector and its totality and so with regards to um those who are in um most extreme extreme poverty we know that it's disproportionately women lone parents people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds and those who are disabled so the intention of this policy is obviously to act swiftly to address people who are in that situation but how do we monitor going forward the policy intention and the policy outcome because I know that this is something that is not always captured and it's something that that we see as a gap and with regards to the measures that are in place to also support those policies if we think about the extension to the tenant Grant fund if you think about the extension to um how discretionary housing payments can be used and also the you know the Scottish welfare fund which councils administer how can we ensure that we collect the data around about who is accessing that how are the decisions made and what impact that's had I think these are very important and well put questions uh there there will be some information in the impact assessments that accompany the bill that gives some indication of the uh the differential impact and and the intersectional aspects of of inequality in relation to those impact assessments I've just been told have just been published so those those will be available to you um I think I I think it would be it would be wrong not to reflect as I did earlier that data in relation to the private rental sector is one of the areas where there is a lot more work to do the the social rented sector tends to be in a better position in terms of uh you know not only having requirements but it's it's structurally easier I think in many cases to collect this this data because you have larger landlords that operate in a mostly in a close geographic area and are well regulated the private rented sector is much more fragmented many many more a separate individual landlords so it's much harder to collect that data under the current framework so that's something that we're looking to improve and in terms of the the uh the the data around accessing the various support schemes and funds that the government has put in place I'll certainly engage with my my colleagues uh responsible for Social Security uh to make sure that we're joining the dots there between uh the issues within their we met and the ways in which this bill and the reporting mechanisms within it are going to operate yeah and just if I can follow up on that one and then I have another question afterwards I guess but my concern is that we don't always um do the you know you've got a task and finished group but sometimes it's about the task of a policy intention and then how it finishes and what impact it's had so where we have a you know an impact assessment I'll kind of look at that's been published I guess it's about at the other end of it so let's say in six months time just double checking that we've actually understood the consequences um as they apply to those groups who um are you know often at the sharpest um you know impact of of poverty inequality so it's just to get an understanding that that's something that the Scottish government will seek report back on absolutely we'll we'll be taking every effort that we can to do that and I think it's something that we could engage actively with the committee on for example if we approach the the reporting stages on this bill assuming Parliament approves it uh it might be that the committee would want to write to us ahead of time to flag up the specific questions that you would want us to be able to to cover uh either in the the reports that we publish or in the discussions that we have with the committee thanks very much for that Minister and the final question I have is round about um an ask that shelter and other organizations have where we we will see and the provisions within the bill that will allow for um where landlords and specific financial difficulties the sale of of property and how could the Scottish government perhaps support landlords and indeed registered social landlords to be able to buy back if that's the situation so that we can protect tenants and set you I think that that would be something that would also give a level of comfort and to to all involved yeah I mean certainly on that the latter Point uh it's one that I I recognize and it has been made as an argument by some people responding to the consultation on the new deal for tenants uh I would have to say it's it's something if if we were to try to incorporate that into the emergency legislation I think we'd have been here a lot longer and we wouldn't have the emergency legislation in in place in time to protect people I think some of these arguments are going to have to be built into the the review of the existing grounds for repossession under the the permanent legislation and how we might look to to alter that but it's uh it's a point that's well made and one that we're that is certainly on our radar okay so finally just in terms of best practice because we know that there's lots of local authorities in ourselves across the country that do engage actively and buy back to actually bolster the numbers of affordable homes and specifically where this is you know individual properties that formerly wear as social let's um I think that you know an agreement that this already happens and it should be supported during this the six months time um which would be helpful I mean we can certainly consider how we might put that on the agenda for the task and finish group uh engage with the sector around that uh I think that there are many instances where that does happen many more where it could happen uh if the right support was in place it's probably never going to be a a blanket solution for every uh circumstance but I think it's certainly one that's uh that the members quite right to raise to our attention and I'll see if we can perhaps write the committee again uh in the in the near future if we uh if we've managed to put that on the agenda for the task and finish group and see what the response is thanks Minister thank you thanks Elena for those very useful questions and I'm just going to bring miles back in for a short I mean it was just no further to Elena with Tim's line of questioning with regards to 26 000 households which are currently in the homelessness system um wondering in terms of uh future housing bill when that is like likely to come what impact this will have will that include prevention duties because we heard earlier in a previous panel that homelessness services are pushed to Breaking Point and so any unintended consequences we might see will add further pressure given what we already see with the record number of children in temporary accommodation that would be unacceptable so I think and can the minister give Insurance win that housing bill will come and actually what will be included which isn't in this legislation well the housing bill was of course also included in the program for government announcement and so we will be working at PACE uh I I hope that the the member will acknowledge that many of the same officials have been working I have to say incredibly hard at an incredible Pace to bring this emergency legislation forward are also the people who whose job it is to support us in the development of the longer term bill so I I'm not going to sit here and say there's no possibility of an impact but we'll be working to to walk through that and understand the impact that not only developing but operating this emergency legislation will have on our longer term work but the the intentions of that longer term work are absolutely unchanged uh not only uh to develop the uh proposals under the New Deal for tenants and measures like the national system of rent controls but also that wider approach to preventing homelessness uh many of which I know the committee has discussed with the cabinet secretary I'm not sure if there's anything you want to add on that Monday just the prevention GT work is is continuing um and there was some analysis published last Thursday so we can make that available so it'd be helpful and if you can update the committee on any time scale going forward I think that would be helpful as well thanks we'll certainly keep the committee informed on on time scales and uh if the if the updated research hasn't been made available we'll make sure that it says thanks and thanks everybody for um great questions and really very helpful to get a bigger picture of of the work you've been doing and of course you know government and Parliament are here together collaborating on shaping Affairs Scotland and so again as I said at the beginning I really appreciate the fact that the bill came out with earlier a bit earlier notice so that we could actually have constructive conversation but I will say that I am impressed at the work and the working at PACE and the fact that you pulled this all together in a matter of four weeks with a priority on you know and a high concern around getting it right um and so I think this morning's conversation has been very useful and also it was very good to hear from stakeholders earlier as well so thank you Patrick for being here along with your officials this morning and I now suspend the meeting to allow our witnesses to leave the room the final public item on our agenda today is to consider a negative instrument council tax exemption dwelling Scotland amendment number two order 2022 as this is a negative instrument there's no requirement for the committee to make any recommendations on it do members have any comments on the instrument okay no comments so is the committee agreed that we do not wish to make any recommendations in relation to this instrument we are agreed we agreed at the start of the meeting to take the final two items on our agenda in private so as we have no more public business today I now close the public part of the meeting