um good evening ladies and gentlemen and uh thank you very much for coming along to the public meeting this evening uh about the potential station emerges in this area um my name is Kieran Timmons and I'm the treasurer to the fire rescue Authority and I'm going to chair the session this evening um I appreciate this isn't an absolutely perfect venue for this sort of presentation or for the numbers of people who want to attend but it's the best locally available and if we went further a field people have to travel and wanted it to be as accessible as possible so that's the reason for choosing the venue in terms of housekeeping um the the fire exit is just over to the side here there are toilets in the corner of the room there or at the the back uh if I can ask you all to turn your mobile phones to silent you done that already I'm be grateful um we've got a a sign up if anyone needs the service um does anyone actually need the service or can I stand and Sue down was request was that yes please um the foreign rescue Authority is facing very challenging decisions about how and where it reduces the service it provides as as a result of funding changes um the structure of tonight's session is going to be that the Chief Fire officer Dan Stevens is first going to do a short presentation so that everyone has the same information and fully understands the reasons why the Fire Authority is even considering the sorts of decisions it's having to make at the moment there's going to be plenty of time available for questions and comment uh we'll manage that to try and allow everyone who wants to to have the opportunity to ask questions as we go through but we will call a close for the event at 8:30 the latest um I'll stop there and hand over to Dan a presentation K Dan if I may just take a minute down start his presentation for those who don't know I'm counselor Chris counselors coun B here and councelor Steve Williams is outside talking to the people who have been locked out can can I have an assurance that another meeting will be held in order to accommodate these people because when you had to lock out at griby you accommodated them with a second meeting I'm simply asking for equality and pacy the residents I'm here to represent and I hope you will agree to that as uh as Adis the the reason we're in here now is because uh we sort your view as the the counselor as to the most appropriate location I think we all acknowledg that the outset potential that we wouldn't be able to accommodate everyone which is proved to be the case that I stand there I do we I stand by the the comments kin made earlier on the issue that we wanted to address first and foremost is one of accessibility to people because you'll appreciate there are no significantly large venues in this immedate on that's that isn't something we're able to address right now we didn't know we didn't absolutely know how many people would would attend there is there's two further public meetings which are being held one is next Tuesday St in Upton and then the following G following Tuesday in ho I will certainly consider whether or not we're able to hold another meeting is Chris request that's something we will H that is something that is something that we will certainly consider the people commit to give us commitment what I'll do is I'll make a staff and then we give us a commitment to the people in greenby give us that commitment I will make a St and then I will I will address that issue at the end of the can I also ask another question then as all these people here and the people out side I'm assuming the vast majority are opposed to this having heard their views having heard their views will you withdraw these plans or is this simply consultation so that you can go back to the Fire Authority and represent their views to say they're opposed to it would you withdraw the plans if these people don't want them that decision as you well know is not mine that's the decision for the fin take the report when you take the report it says it's not acceptable I appreciate there are very strong and passionate views from people but there are a lot of people here and want to give everyone a chance I think it's best I want to give everyone a chance I want to give the 200 people outside a chance so give us a commitment to another meeting you it in greby give it to us I think it's best if we start with the present best you give a why W you give a yes we'll have another meeting the people outside are asking what's going to happen to them they want the voices heard the neede the people outside couldn't get in well I haven't been so I will give I will address the issue of another meeting at the end of the presentation Jenny can you put the first slide up please so know I will address like for the last time I will address that issue at the end of the meeting public meeting it's a public recommending this proposal even though the people here don't want it we yes or no but ladies and gentlemen I appreciate there are very strong feelings here that's becoming clear already as we move through the presentation some of the points and questions you're asking will probably be addressed through the process that Cas but I think it's important that everyone has a a fair grounding about why we're in this position and why the Fire Authority is even considering these decisions and then there will be plenty your time to make all the questions and points that you want to K I'm answering I'm asking a simple question will the Chief Fire officer take the back the Fire Authority recommending this site as the proposal for the merger closure West gave an option and a new fire engine so here or will he listen to the people and not take that report back simple question yes or no all you all you've got to do with respect and politeness is give an assurance that it will be taken back I'm on committees that represented people like me myself disabled people and fight against um things yet all these people are asking is that you give an assurance that it will be taken back and it will be fed back towards there's an absolute assurance that this is a public consultation and the values have youbody a postal reply that you a postal acknowledgement that you have acknowledged it and the people that unfortunately couldn't get in today can you give a postal what's it's a point that's really well made and we will talk through all the different forums that are available for people to express their views as well as in the meeting tonight and we will an absolutely clear that's all the people want isn't it just an assurance that you will take back to you take back Bas because there are as many people outside as there are in [Music] here he was police off fire officers yeah you you must have known that the the the people the demand that people were were were going to Lobby against this yeah you must you must have known that and we and had we have had we have had we have booked another Vue was a distance from here we' been criticized for [Music] that what about over Church community center could you not have got that because that is a big venue and it's only just over there okay if we can uh if we can make a start on the presentation stilling the question that Council was asking down there you still avoided the the yes or no answer just give us a yes or no answer we we go to the P by your hand down recommending this site as what you will describe as the least worst option or will you listen to the people here and outside and withdraw these crazy plans now I will say [Applause] I will Faithfully represent the views of people will you will you be taking a report yes or no or simply a consultation about implementation of your views there are a number of options that will share with people this evening that's why we ought to take questions at the end the outomes of the consultations my V towards coun a comment this presentation is focused on operational matters only this is the looked at the general election what I would what I what I would say is in the interest of officers and elected members in this room we ought not to be discussing any issues other than matters which relate directly to the operational implications relating to the proposal and suggest you do hold it after the election so we wer compromised I'm going move on now the presentation if you choose to talk over me if you choose to talk over me then that's fine I am going to continue now with the presentation we will have questions at the end I will answer the questions some insurances and I will take back the views Faithfully expressed in here to the fan rescue Authority but what I strongly suggest this that everyone in this room takes heed of some of the options that I lay out because there are substantial Public Safety implications which ultimately is the overd isue is what we are here to talk about and we ought not to lose sight of that no one in this room to leave lose sight of that how often rescue the forign Rescue Services act 2004 cled legislation the foreign Rescue Services act 2004 is the primary legislation that governs what the far and rescue Authority is stat to required to deliver part two core functions has three sections section seven is the statute of Duty to respond to fires section eight is the staty duty to respond to road traffic collisions section n is the statute duty to respond to other emergencies those other emergencies are determined through the F Rescue Services England 2007 emergencies order and include chemical biological radiological nuclear conventional explosion and sear rescue which is the rescue of persons from collapse structures finally rescue Authority also has the power to respond to any incident where someone may be injured become ill or Die the same extends to an animal or the environment that means for all intents and purposes the fire and rescue Authority has to respond to any incident where somebody May either lose their life or be injured or die which includes any of those incidents and anything else that is not specifically there can you move the slide on please yeah it's important that we understand what the far and rescue Authority is here to do and more importantly what it isn't it is not willb a council it does not make decisions over matters of planning it has no regard for those issues it has no powers in relation to that the authority makes decisions solely solely relation to solely in relation to operational response Public Safety green we don't believe you D rescue service National frameware station by your house would you by where you live it's where it is right and do you know what like let's just pause one second excuse me can I just say something about koreen bels like response to what you said then the nppf states that the construction of new buildings should be regarded as inappropriate for green belt land so why you proposing to build on green and if you give me the opportunity to present and there are a number of people I can say actually noding their head at that I think who have had enough of being interrupted so you give me the opportunity to present then I will explain to you why shut up just it clear we are in we are in the this is not a political we are we are on camera here we are on camera we're getting filmed want to make that clear the benefit of everyone the purpose of this meeting is purely to consider an operational response matter for the fine rescue Authority I would ask in the interest of everyone could we please allow me to present I can get through this in 15 20 minutes then you can take questions because I will have undoubtedly addressed what suggesting you will agree with what I've got to say I'm in no way trying to convince anyone what I am stating is a matter of fact that is all all I ask is you listen to what I've got to say not in any way suggesting you need to agree with me if you don't that will be reported Faithfully back to the Fine rescue Authority as the outcomes of the gby consultation was but I would ask that you take a view based on what I've just said is the responsibilities of the fire and rescue Authority and The Wider issue of Public Safety because there are a number of elements in this presentation there are some additional pieces of material that I could refer to where I could graphically demonstrate and probably upset quite a lot of you in this room I could graphically demonstrate I not going to do that I am not going to do it however it doesn't make it any less of a reality this is a matter of public safety and people need to listen to what I've got to say but you don't need to that we can see up there please just don't read far and rescue service National framework deep determines that the F rescue Authority must produce an integrated RIS management plan within that plan needs to do certain things it needs to talk about and address how it will manage risk it does that primarily through for fundamental standards prevention right prevention of fire fire safety protection right protection of businesses preparedness training of firefighters and operational Doctrine and response how we actually respond to incidents we have to we have to engage not just with our blue light Partners but more broadly with the local authorities as well in order to develop a community risk register for all of Mery side like that determines how we collectively along with our partners keep mey side safe from all of the reasonably foreseeable risks I as the Chief Fire officer I'm charged ultimately with the delegated responsibility for operational matters that means it rests with me right which is right and proper I that's that is absolutely fine but that responsibility is mine ultimately so I am held to account for the operational recommendations that I make to the fire and rescue Authority which are concerned only with Public Safety J you move the slide up for a long time now merde F rescue Authority has faced quite a significant financial challenge certainly over the last decade and more there are Legacy reasons for that not least because the foreign rescue infrastructure across Mery side still to a greater or lesser extent dates back to the 1930s when the national standards of Fire cover which were repealed back in 2004 were set and back in the 1930s Mercy side looked very different to what it does now as you'll all realize back then Liverpool was the Second City the hint to land of Mery side was far more industrialized and the population was a lot more than what it is now back in 2004 the fire Services Act of 1947 was repealed it was replaced with the far Rescue Services at 2004 along with that the national standards of Fire cover went and we moved to a per capita base funding and of course what had happened over that period of time m population had reduced from 1.7 million down to as low as 1.3 million back even as far ago as decade so 2004 over the last five years mide fire rescue Authority has faced a 35% reduction in its Grant we also are limited by the amount that we can raise council tax by we rely on grant for 70% of our income so we've had 35% reduction on 75% of our income that clearly has quite an impact we've had to make Savings of 20 million in the last five years and we have to make Savings in this financial year now of 6.3 million but even still even after those efficiencies even after the reduction in our budget we are still the third most expensive F rescue service on Grant alone and fifth most expensive on overall expenditure there is and always has been postcode Lottery on far and rescue cover in this country it's ever been th and it always will be so that's just a reality we've done very very well over time we still have very fast response times of the savings that we've had to make this year the 6.3 million just under half just under 3 million is assumed to come from what we tell support services that is anything that's not directly related to fire stations very simplistic differentiation it doesn't mean it's not front line that 3 million or just under 3 million includes some of our advocacy roles our prevention staff our protection staff just made a very very simple differentiation the remainder has to come from fire stations simply because there's nowhere left to take it from that is going to cause us some very very significant challenges to achieve that3 million pound because we've had to make such far reaching savings up to this point and certainly over the last five years there's nothing left to go at now we are at the point where to remain viable as an organization we can't take a great deal more out of our support function what I mean by by that is we need to have for example a finance team because people need to be paid you can't not have a finance team it's that sort of that sort of example move the uh slide on what that means is the £ 3.4 million needs to come from operational response or from fire stationers expressed very simply the number of firefighters we can afford to employ Direct relates to the number of fire engines we staff which in itself self-evidently directly equates to the number of fire stations in which they can be housed it's very simple that's the that is the the uh the reality for us in the the fine rescue service in order to make the saving of 3.4 million we' have to take out another 88 firefighter and Senior manager posts that will need that will require us to reduce our station numbers down from what was 26 25 now because we've closed Allon and Liverpool on the 1 of April take that down to 22 whilst at the same time we were trying to attempt to maintain 28 fire engines 24 will be maintained whole time by firefighters physically there on the fire station and the four that we would have lost otherwise we will try to maintain them through firefight Fighters taking eight retained contracts so when they're off ordinarily firefighters work a 2 12h hour days 2 12 hour nights 4 days off 48 hours over an 8 day reference 42 hours over over seven if you like seven days doing a retain contract to give us cover on the two middle days off that's how we would H seek to maintain the four fire engines last year when we uh we took our public consultation pan Mery side over our integrated risk management plan which we're required to produce each year we looked at a number of we offered out a number of options for people to consider and they are contained within the handout that you have there on your seats tonight they're explained in detail so I won't go into that now leave that for you to where be' that for you to read your convenience those saving options are station merges which is the closure of two stations to build a new station somewhere around the midpoint which is if I'm honest with you nationally probably the most favored way it's certainly something that a significant number of far and rescue policies have undertaken because self-evidently it's the uh it it is the thing to do if you can no longer afford to crew the two stations outright station closures is another option that's something that we've done in Liverpool this year Allon Fire Station closed outright on the 1st of April there are other some there are other clearing changes that you can make and I say I won't go into them in detail because the detail is in the handouts that you have there on your there on your seats terms of station merges as I say that is certainly for Mery side given our geography I the county is relatively small in geographic terms save you compare us to cheser or or lancer for example the the public under the consultation meetings recognized that meres were going to be the least impactive simply because they are it's a matter of fact three mares are identified to date one of which is already been approved by the authority there is the merger of Wiston and heightened fire stations in nossle and a new station in presca there is the proposal here for West whle and there is also a proposal for a major the existing Eon fire station in St Helens with the fire station which is on past off 12 in St Helens just outside the Town Center as I've said previously as I've said previously I'll come to that as I've said previously alot closed outright on the first of April the consultation process for the mares be exactly the same as it was for Noley and the same as the consultation we did for gby which went back to the Fine rescue Authority even though we council with through the land for our consideration we concluded the process and we Faithfully reported back the views of everybody who had responded either in the public meetings or to our server that was Faithfully done and that was I think Mr and Mrs BL attended the meeting that was filmed that is a matter of public record that is what we did that is what we will do this time and that is what we will always do and councelor Blakeley you have my absolute undertaken as you always have done that that is what we will do to be clear from an operational response perspective we did not need to conduct public meetings or indeed conduct a public consultation because we've already covered the principle of a station merger through the gby proposal other foreign Rescue Services in the country with the exceptional truth of ourselves have consulted on a broad principle and never talked about the location you imagine how many people you got the meetings not many we've never done that we've never ever shied away from that is the proposal the reality is what it does do is confused two issues one is operational response one is planning it's not one and the same there are two separate processes and you get two bites at the Cherry that is the real realityy we tried to be as open honest and transparent as we can be we've never hidden anything in that regard in terms of this process the outcome will be reported back to the Fine rescue Authority the outcome the deliver to forums the outcomes of the public meetings and the uh the survey that will all go back to the authority will adulterated it will be what it will be the authority then need to make a decision but their consideration primarily is operational response and it is important now why I make that point because there are other options here that I could recommend to the authority that may come out of this consultation and I ask that you consider those because it is very important how you respond to the consultation and in no way am I trying to convince anyone that they should support us building the fire station anywhere I get the fact complete completely it's not the fact that a fire station could be anything I understand that completely I get that I get it completely was that I assure you was not St St saves the point to come up here whatever happens in terms of the program of mares itself we submitted a bid last year for the capital allocations for this year Capital funding being oneoff funding not our Revenue not the revenue funding that we get each year right oneoff Capital funding for what's turn the transformation and efficiencies fund and we were successful in that bid for match funding to fund the maor program if indeed that is what goes ahead one station thus far will be buildt under the major Pro program that's over pasc that's been approved any balance would be met from reserves the reason to make that point is the authority if the mes go ahead will not inare any additional debt repayment from the major program because that would increase our Revenue expenditure we're not going to do that what we're going to do if it goes ahead is pay outright from reserves and from this funding for the stations that's what we will do any merger is going to take at least two years to deliver the Authority approved the uh the the presc merge in and nossle on the 2nd of October we are still not in a position of seeking pre application or pre-planning application advice because we still have to firir up the designs because we have police and ambulance colleagues who wish to join us in that site these things take a long long time and what happens in in the meanwhile is what happens in the meanwhile because we are dealing with further INE Financial challenges we cannot recruit people to replace the people who are leaving so what happens is as time goes on and bear in mind if we're lucky we'll get a new station and fcet by the end of 2016 in the meanwhile more and more people leave the organization and with the best will in the world I can't magic people up out of nowhere to St fire engines we only have the budget now to staff 24 whole time fire engines not 28 as our structure still only 27 because Al's gone not 27 that our structure assumes so what that means is the fire stations that remain in certain areas are not in the right place because certain stations we can't clear if they're not key stations we can't always clear them that is a reality that situation will get worse which is why we're here now conducting this consultation because we need to move on and get a resolution one way or the other because we need to address these issues structurally the right place but I'll come to that I'll come to that second I'll come to that in a second the closures when you close the station right that is much much easier believe me at Allon public meetings for all we had two I had 20 people at the first and there was a National Fire strike on at the time it was pretty much all firefighters you who who were on strike who came to the meeting the second meeting there was eight people there two of them were Beatles fans who had no interest at all in the operational response implications and we only concerned at the fact that the fire station supposedly features in the song Penny L much much easier much much easier to close a fire station unfortunately than it is to build one we get that we understand that right we do understand that but it is not necessarily the right operational decision in terms of the West whle merger like we have two fire stations on West whle we have Upton and we've got West K is there anything coming outon and West k West K is closed no it's not closed West is West K is on the run about 70% of occasions at this time that number will reduce as time goes on for the reasons that are said because I can't magic people up out of nowhere because we can't replace people as they leave because we need to reduce our numbers to make the savings that is the economic reality so the longer this goes on and doesn't get resolve the longer that situation is in effect now I need to do something about that and so does the F rescue Authority whatever that may be in the ideal world you would move to the midpoint in between the two fire stations and I'll show you a couple of slides as we Mo through the presentation we're not far off now we're not haven't got too much longer to go the midpoint the exact midpoint is there or there abouts three lines in which is about 600 M down the road towards West car you wouldn't go any further beyond that because if you think the reason why West Carby is not the key station in Upton is is if you draw a 10-minute travel Ione around West kby that covers as much as the river day as it does of the will you cover 10 minutes around L and covers more of the Whow that's the reality and that's why it's the key station and not West kby that would be that would be obvious to anyone the only operationally viable non Green Belt site was the greby library which is the reason that will initially offered that up for consideration that was subsequently with withdrawn and what we land did is offer us for consideration the site at s m and who offered it who offered it the counc in in conversation like bear in mind will is a category one responder on the Civil con mercies Act take you back to the comments that are made right at the beginning wh all has a duty around Community safety in the same way as we did and for reasons which I will demonstrate in a minute response times do matter therefore will cannot cannot disregard that it's not something they consider in in exclusivity a planning committee would consider all of the issues I'm sure the gentleman will quite legitimately raise over there not disputing that for one second you then weigh up Community safety versus green belt which is fine it's not the fine rescue Authority's decision to make that is the decision of will because they they have the status of responsibilities in that regard soal Massi Road piece of land which I'll show you on a map in a second is in wh's ownership I have written to will to ask that they consider transferring the land to us that decision has not been made that decision will not be made until the end of the consultation process we have approached other land owners in the vicinity of three L three lanes end we haven't had any response we do not have any power to compulsory purchase land therefore we have what we have available for for me for consideration nothing more but we are con being specific about a location what we could have done right at the very beginning is say we'll have a pan merys side consultation around the principal's emerges that would have discharged our responsibility in relation to consultation we are a pan meys side organization this does not in the broad sense affect response times around the targets I will explain very clearly the difference between the arbitary 10-minute response standard and the actual reality I will come on and explain that the principle of maor is well established across the country lots of Fire and Rescue Services have pursued this option Mery side has done as recently as 15 years ago the old con Road station in spe was merged with the banks Road station in garon to give us a new station by Liverpool Airport these things have been done before in terms of the major option like what does it save us currently we have two fire stations West has 24 firefighters Upton has 24 firefighters established on the budget well that's not strictly to actually the first before the first of April that de there after it doesn't now clearly because the that money is has gone out of our budget so 24 24 you move to a station in the middle you have 24 you save 24 posts 860 870,000 which makes the contribution when you do that four times that's what delivers about 3.4 million saving that we need to deliver that we have to deliver because we can't take it from anywhere else and you can't spend what you haven't got in the event that this Mar goes ahead in the event this Mar goes ahead we would sell the sites Alon and West kby and those the income that we received would go towards the the grant that we've got off the government the oneof funding which back up with our reserves would pay for a new fire station so there would be no additional Revenue cost as I explained previously as it stands as it stands ladies and gentlemen very patient so far there's not long to go in the presentation if you just wait till the end everyone will have the chance to make their ask their questions and make their points thank you as it stands The Proposal here is that we close up to on West K and we build a new station in the midpoint the only land that we have available for consideration right now is the land that's a mass and go that's it that is the only land we have available because we don't have compulsory purchase powers to purchase any other land but the council the alternative the alternative to the major as it stands and here's the thing here's the outright closure of West Kirby because that is not the key station so you'd have to protect up them ahead of West Kirby for the reasons are said early on however what I will do I had the comment then do that so we'll come to that what I uh and and we got similar comments be and I think it is important now that I make real important point for you to take on board because what could happen is if the outcome of the public consultation is unanimously we don't want a fire station but you recognize the operational principle of the merger then that's that's that's a plan and issue ultimately that's a plan and issue however if it is we don't want a new fire we don't want a new fire station we don't care about response times going to be honest with you that does put us in a uh that's a slightly different dynamic because I will Faithfully report that back to the F rescue Authority and what the authority might look at is think well people in West W don't really care about response times now we're going to go through we're going to go through like all I'm I'm making a comment I am making a comment B that's very returns returns th far matter of record returns made th far where people have made that very comment we don't care about response times that comment made and that's fine and that's fine please please indulge me let me explain let me explain the fire and rescue Authority then let's say that was the overriding not suggesting from s Massi that it will be for second I am stating the fact there are comments that have been made during the gby consultation numerous comments I have to say care I've got three children I live right opposite so M I have three children I care let me that's fine that's fine and it's important it is really important that we establish that principle because let me just finish and I'm not saying that anyone presented to the so Massi Village Conservation Area Society we had a good discussion there but I do need to make this point I'm not saying for one second the people in Soo Massi take that view what I am saying is and it's a matter of fact that view was expressed in Fairly significant numbers during the gby consultation don't care about response time not bothered about W care so on and so forth that what was said now you look report that back to the fin I will Faithfully you report it back the fine rescue Authority do one or two things they can look at that and think if people in West will don't care about response times you could argue you could shut up and keep West kby open it would make the saveing it would increase response times over here but if response times don't matter then you see the point to make it or to take it to the nth degree you could shut up then Ang West K because less than 10% of the overall incidents that occurred on Mery side happen on the two station areas shut both stations and then we don't have to do anything insan